Ha! Title only just fits.
Anyhoo, discussion start June 1st. Get reading!
Anyhoo, discussion start June 1st. Get reading!
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June 2013 - Robert M. Pirsig: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values
- Thread starter Polly Parrot
- Start date
Meadow337
Former Moderator
It has been really interesting rereading this book, because when I first read it, I somehow entirely skipped over the very autobiographical nature of the book and merely absorbed the philosophy of it. Reading it again now I'm overwhelmed by the sadness of the story behind the story.
canuck
Active Member
Please ignore previous post, not thinking clearly, I guess you all read ZAMM in May and are now prepared to discuss it in June and then we read Brave New World in June and discuss it starting July - the penny dropped. I have started ZAMM and not too far into it - initial impression is that the narrator is a bit pompous with him knowing what was right and John not being able to figure it out. Anyway, that's just from a few pages. Maybe it will all become clearer as I get into it. So discuss away and I'll try to catch up. 
Couldn't get my hands on ZAMM until today so will try to read it quickly and then discuss.
canuck
Active Member
Reached 30% of this book and realized that it simply wasn't anything I wished to pursue further. I enjoyed the physical description of the journey but when the narrator goes off on his philosophical bent, classic vs romantic, I could feel my interest waning rapidly. I guess I see a nice looking motor cycle in the romantic sense rather than the classic as I'm not too interested in the nuts and bolts end of it. So I will be interested to read what others think of ZAMM. Hopefully I'll do better with Mr. Huxley.
canuck
Active Member
Just read up on Pirsig's life (and interview on Google) and realize he was a man with many problems and many questions. It is sad.
This book won't leave me alone, I keep puzzling over why the writer found it so difficult to see that other people (John) had a different outlook on dealing with motor cycles which the writer seemed to perceive as the only way to think. However, I'll leave it to others to shed some light on this.
SFG75
Well-Known Member
What an interesting pick for the month! It retails for $2.99 on amazon in the states.
A fascinating companion reader would be Sheldon Kopp's If you meet the Buddha on the side of the road, kill him! Kopp argued that the truth is inside all of us and that the modern priest(i.e.-the guru) and all who preceded him, can't help you "get there" when it comes to finding truth and happiness. Can't wait to sit down tonight with some good java and the freshly downloaded book.
A fascinating companion reader would be Sheldon Kopp's If you meet the Buddha on the side of the road, kill him! Kopp argued that the truth is inside all of us and that the modern priest(i.e.-the guru) and all who preceded him, can't help you "get there" when it comes to finding truth and happiness. Can't wait to sit down tonight with some good java and the freshly downloaded book.
canuck
Active Member
What an interesting pick for the month! It retails for $2.99 on amazon in the states.
You're lucky, my book cost quite a bit more than that, must have picked the wrong day!
SFG75
Well-Known Member
I have to say that I'm up to chapter 5 now and I'm probably done for the night. I did enjoy Pirsig's writing style and while motorcycles and other technical things are not my bag, the workings of engines and the associated concerns with motorcycles was fairly easy to understand and to picture in my mind.
The largest bone of contention for me was in chapter three when he went on a lecture about ghosts and the law of gravity. The overall point being that it existed before such a conception could be framed by man, like ghosts, to me was a horrible generalization and comparison. While it is true "the law" existed before Isaac Newton formulated it on paper, unlike ghost stories, we do have a system to test such propositions and we know that it is "true" and that it does truly exist. The phenomenon of ghosts has not been confirmed and is completely outside of the area of consideration. Sloppy comparison here, one that definitely caught my attention. I will say that I was impressed with his observation about rural/urban life and the need for a new chautauqua. Pirsig admits that he doesn't want to start a new river, but rather, just dig a deeper channel as mentioned at the end of an early chapter. I really did like that observation and some others.
The largest bone of contention for me was in chapter three when he went on a lecture about ghosts and the law of gravity. The overall point being that it existed before such a conception could be framed by man, like ghosts, to me was a horrible generalization and comparison. While it is true "the law" existed before Isaac Newton formulated it on paper, unlike ghost stories, we do have a system to test such propositions and we know that it is "true" and that it does truly exist. The phenomenon of ghosts has not been confirmed and is completely outside of the area of consideration. Sloppy comparison here, one that definitely caught my attention. I will say that I was impressed with his observation about rural/urban life and the need for a new chautauqua. Pirsig admits that he doesn't want to start a new river, but rather, just dig a deeper channel as mentioned at the end of an early chapter. I really did like that observation and some others.
Meadow337
Former Moderator
The debate about whether gravity existed before Sir Isaac Newton thought of it is not a new one, and not only that but there is debate as to whether gravity exists at all. And yes don't quote but the apple falls ...
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/200...new-theory-of-gravity-gravity-does-not-exist/
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/200...new-theory-of-gravity-gravity-does-not-exist/
Meadow337
Former Moderator
I think for me the book is more summed up when he talks about roads ... that there is a highway - a straight way, a 'don't look around you' way of going through life and there are the back ways that meander, stop to smell the roses way.
The rest of the book is simply an expansion on that notion.
And I have to say that I'm with him ... the eastern and the western (simply because Eastern Philosophy tends to be the 'romantic' (as he puts it) not straight way of putting it while Western Philosophy tends to be the 'scientific' / rational way) are not mutually incompatible, that there is a 'theory of everything' to combine the two. I also don't believe that applying (for lack of a better word) 'scientific' logic to the romantic view of the world destroys it.
I find that people tend to divide themselves into the rational and the romantic (its a good word for the condition). There are those who analyse everything and if a concept or experience isn't 'rational' they dismiss it. Anything unexplainable by logic is questionable. Then there are those for whom life is a series of experiential happenings to whom logic is anathema. Don't ask them to analyse why something is - it just is or they will often say 'this is my experience and it if it isn't your experience doesn't mean either are invalid'.
If the romantic allows the notion that his/her experiences can be analysed (and therefore understood and transmitted) and the rational person allows that there is more under heaven than he/she knows and widens the parameters of what is possible their experience of the world will open to whole new vista.
The rest of the book is simply an expansion on that notion.
And I have to say that I'm with him ... the eastern and the western (simply because Eastern Philosophy tends to be the 'romantic' (as he puts it) not straight way of putting it while Western Philosophy tends to be the 'scientific' / rational way) are not mutually incompatible, that there is a 'theory of everything' to combine the two. I also don't believe that applying (for lack of a better word) 'scientific' logic to the romantic view of the world destroys it.
I find that people tend to divide themselves into the rational and the romantic (its a good word for the condition). There are those who analyse everything and if a concept or experience isn't 'rational' they dismiss it. Anything unexplainable by logic is questionable. Then there are those for whom life is a series of experiential happenings to whom logic is anathema. Don't ask them to analyse why something is - it just is or they will often say 'this is my experience and it if it isn't your experience doesn't mean either are invalid'.
If the romantic allows the notion that his/her experiences can be analysed (and therefore understood and transmitted) and the rational person allows that there is more under heaven than he/she knows and widens the parameters of what is possible their experience of the world will open to whole new vista.
Occlith
Well-Known Member
I am at chapter eleven at this point; I like the writing style and the story.
He has a way of looking at things in detail; breaking down motorcycles into not only mechanical components but also their functions. I can imagine that he has a personality that visualizes flowcharts to see the organization within own life.
He has a way of looking at things in detail; breaking down motorcycles into not only mechanical components but also their functions. I can imagine that he has a personality that visualizes flowcharts to see the organization within own life.
If you keep reading until the end of Part 1 you will find out, at least partly, why he is the way he is. c'mon you know you want to
These side topics reveal to me the author’s state of mind and his own world view. At this point I’m wondering if he is a reliable narrator given what he has and has not told his fellow travelers.
Sparhawk
Active Member
I have to admit that when I read the first part of the book I found myself feeling a bit exasperated because I felt like what be was saying was ok but, that be was missing something important. Now that I have taken a break from ZAMM for a little while and have started to read it again I feel like be is starting to get somewhere.
We will have to see how the book ends
We will have to see how the book ends
canuck
Active Member
I found myself going back to the book last night after saying I wouldn't continue - still get a bit antsy when philosophers try to chase something down in their analyses when it really doesn't matter except in their own heads. It is what it is. I like your comment Occlith about 'visualizing flow charts' - seemed apt.