Beyond Belief; Elaine Pagel & her visit to my state

[SFG75]

I don't know what it is, but as of late, it seems as if when I start reading a book, the author of that given book somehow drops in on the cornhusker state for a lecture. A few months back, I had the privilege of seeing John Dominic Crossan, a leading scholar of early christianity at a nearby college, speaking about his new book, Paul. Well, I've been reading Beyond Belief by Elaine Pagels. Pagels looks into the varioius mystical early christian groups and highlights how it came to be that we have Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John rather than the gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Mary, as well as the Apocalypse of Paul which are comparable writings. Dr. Pagels is going to give a guest lecture at the University of Nebraska and I'm VERY excited to attend. I just love these events, I really do.

What lectures/book signings have you attended if any?

I'm so pumped, this is awesome.

 

[Sitaram]

Chewing the Cud

I have seen some documentaries on Elaine Pagel and her work on the Gnostic manuscripts discovered at Nag Hammadi in the 1940's.

I found it fascinating that, among those manuscripts discovered, there was a copy of Plato's Republic. To me that single fact alone speaks volumes.

Apparently, Elaine Pagel, as a teenager, was an enthusiastic member of a Church, but somehow became greatly disillusioned when a schoolmate was killed in a car accident, and some dispute arose regarding the deceased's place in the hereafter.

At least, I think that is part of what I remember. I am at work at the moment, and time is limited, but I may return to post other thoughts and ruminations (nota bene: cows are ruminating, having four stomachs, and constantly chewing the cud.)

 

[SFG75]

I have seen some documentaries on Elaine Pagels and her work on the Gnostic manuscripts discovered at Nag Hamadi in the 1940's.

I found it fascinating that, among those manuscripts discovered, there was a copy of Plato's Republic. To me that single fact alone speaks volumes.

Apparently, Elaine Pagels, as a teenager, was an enthusiastic member of a Church, but somehow became greatly disillusioned when a schoolmate was killed in a car accident, and some dispute arose regarding the deceased's place in the hereafter.

At least, I think that is part of what I remember. I am at work at the moment, and time is limited, but I may return to post other thoughts and ruminations (nota bene: cows are ruminating, having four stomachs, and constantly chewing the cud.)

Pagels does mention the death of her friend in Beyond Belief. The boy was Jewish and her minister stated that the young man would be damned due to the fact that he hadn't received Christ as his savior. She went to graduate school to study religion due to the fact that it was still a compelling issue for her. She learned how to speak Greek in order to understand the original writings better, as well as to research the writings of the gnostic gospels. I didn't know it, but she was also an accomplished fine arts performer, as she was a former Martha Graham dance student. Along with the death of a friend, she lost her son.

This book is fascinating because she tells how the early christian leaders came to codify Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and how other writings were eventually shunned. There are some interesting stories mentioned as well about how other works were shunned. While we all know of the "conspiracy" among power-hungry men, you do eventually have to put things together and figure out who is divinely inspired and who isn't if you are operating a church. A lot of the shunned prophets and mystics believed in baptism, but other "higher callings" that would have created serious divisions within a given church. I was surprised to learn that there were even some churches that only focused on the writings of a given new testament apostle-some attached themselves to Peter in hopes of receiving a revelation, while other focused on the writings of John and his simplicity.

 

[Sitaram]

I studied ancient Greek in college. When I graduated, I decided to teach myself modern Greek. I spent a lot of time giving free English lessons to Greeks. I learned lots of popular Greek songs by heart, as well as a poem or two by Kostis Palamas, a modern poet.

A knowledge of ancient and modern Greek can be useful.

I do hope we are not violating some fundamental forum rule about religious talk.

I think you would enjoy reading the 5 volume paperback edition of Jaroslav Pelikan's "History and Development of Christian Doctrine". He takes you, historically, from apostolic times to the 20th century, and examines so many obscure aspects of evolution in thinking.

Also, "History of Heresy" by David Christie-Murray (one volume, paperback). The author worked 20 year on the book. When he started work on it, he was an ordained Anglican. By the time he was finished writing the book, he had become so transformed in his thinking that he had resigned from the clergy and became a Quaker.

 

[SFG75]

I studied ancient Greek in college. When I graduated, I decided to teach myself modern Greek. I spent a lot of time giving free English lessons to Greeks. I learned lots of popular Greek songs by heart, as well as a poem or two by Kostis Palamas, a modern poet.

A knowledge of ancient and modern Greek can be useful.

I do hope we are not violating some fundamental forum rule about religious talk.

I'm always amazed at the foreign exchange students that my school gets. A lot of the kids are multi-lingual and take great pride in knowing more than one. Here in the states, we are somewhat language-phobic IMHO.

Yes, we are within the rules-the topic has to do with a book. It is for that reason that the two Bible threads are still open. If it weren't for the book discussion, then yes, we would be out of line.

 

[Sitaram]

I was watching you post with "Who is on-line" while I was in the midst of editing/adding. It is worth mentioning that I am often modifying posts in this fashion, so it is worth clicking on reload on the browser occasionally, or revisiting a thread.

Well, glad to hear that such talk is permissible when the goal is to better understand literature.

I am 9th generation (or 13th generation) American (depending on how one reckons a generation). My first ancestor came to America around 1640, I think. When I graduated from college, I felt a great desire to become polylingual. I too noticed that Americans are weak in this area.

I remember when I first began to dream in modern Greek. And one day, in a restaurant, surrounded by Greeks speaking, suddenly, it was as if something clicked in my head, and suddenly, I was understanding everything.

It is a wonderful experience to become fluent in a second language.

It is also a wonderful experience to come to some understanding of Calculus in mathematics. That is why St. John's in Annapolis required it as part of the curriculum. We read a portion of Newton's Principia, were he first explains the concept of Calculus. I remember being on a long train ride, with my introductory textbook on calculus, and suddenly, something snaped or clicked in my mind, and suddenly, I understood. A derivative is a slope at a point. An integral is an area. A double integral is a volume. By analogy and extension, a triple integral is the volume of a four dimensional object (if there be such an object).


Such moments in learning are like awakenings. For me, religious experiences are a subset of such experiences as these.

We are speaking so much, the past few days now, about the matter of religion in literature, as well as literature in religion.

Let me share with you something that was posted at that other forum, a verse by Elizabeth Barrett Browning, which sparked and ignited something within me.

I do not have to argue with you very hard to convince you that Browning's verse is literature. We recognize her as an establish poet. But the words which follow, the reaction, my reaction, is also part of that literary process. The words of the author strike us as a hammer strikes a bell, but it is our inner response and reverberation which becomes an organic part of the artistic process.

Taking Off Our Shoes

Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God;
but only he who sees takes of his shoes. ~Elizabeth Barrett Browning

I stumbled by chance across these precious lines. Stumbling has its virtue.

The Old Testament story begins with a burning bush which attracts Moses’ attention and inspires him to approach. Only after noticing and approaching is Moses instructed in two matters; first, that the ground on which he stands is holy and, second, that he should take off his shoes.

Elizabeth is reminding us that the miraculous is everywhere, but not everyone recognizes this miracle of omnipresent miracles. There are miracles, and then there is the miracle of miracles.

Most of us, who read the words I now write, read them seated in comfort and health, free from fear and hunger. To a starving person, stumbling upon an unexpected morsel of food is a miracle. For the war-torn, a day of cease-fire is a promised land. But amid good fortune and riches you will find many who are impoverished and in prison. Such unfortunates are impoverished because they are glutted in the apathy of indifference and imprisoned by desires which can never be fulfilled simply because they have already been fulfilled many times over. Desire knows no limits. I too write letters from this Birmingham jail.

Wise Rumi said, “Do not seek water, for water is everywhere. Seek thirst, for without thirst, water has no value.”

How may I make you thirsty?

There was once a Protestant preacher who insisted that one of the pleasures in heaven would be to peer down upon the tormented in hell and feel gratitude for not being among them.

Why do heavens require hells? Why do promised lands require persecution, exile and wilderness? Why is abstinence a prerequisite for desire?

Moses was a shepherd. Moses was at work, on the job, tending his flocks. Suddenly, out of the corner of his eye, he notices something most unusual; a bush aflame. Moses turns about. The Greek word for such a turning is “apotrepsis.” We all have our apotreptic moments. Stumbling lends itself to turning. Turning requires noticing and vision but the essence of stumbling is lack of awareness.

A verse in the Psalms says, “O, that I might have wings, like a dove, to fly and be at rest.” How may one both fly and be at rest in the same moment? The wings which overshadow the tabernacle hover in such restive flight, in terrific hiatus, as a crouched tiger springing. Seraphic visions hover in their thrice holy hymn.



Moses abandons his flock and turns toward this wondrous bush of flames, saying, “I must go and see.” Moses is a soldier gone A.W.O.L. (away without leave). Who told Moses he could do such a thing? How far away was that bush, I wonder? How long did Moses leave his flocks unprotected and at the mercy of wild beasts? Moses turns, renounces and forsakes.


Moses is told to take off his shoes, but Moses is not told to notice the bush aflame. No booming voice from heaven thunders and commands “Moses, Moses, turn about and notice me.” We cannot be told to be surprised, for that ruins the surprise. I have a secret, but if I tell you, then it is no longer secret.

I can tell you to take off your shoes. I can tell you that the ground on which you stand is holy. But I cannot tell you to be surprised. Only the unsuspecting can stumble, be surprised and turn.


As Aristotle said, “Philosophy begins in wonder.”

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

I can offer you, the least of the brethren, a cup of water, but I cannot make you thirst. Only salt creates thirst, and I am not the salt of the earth.

Even God thirsts: the final words from the cross, “I thirst.”

For God, existence is the burning bush and we are its tongues of fire. For God, the commonplace and ordinary is miracle enough. In the voice of many waters, we are each one drop. It is our conflagration which quenches God's thirst.

 

[Sitaram]

SFG75 - mail box full

I just now tried to send you a PM to say that I had added to my post (rather than gratuitously bumping the thread), but the system says that you have exceeded the number of allowable messages. Just thought I would let you know.

 

[SFG75]

Sorry about the message box being full, I forgot that you also have to empty the "sent" messages as well. That really must have been something else when you started to dream in modern Greek. The Sopir-Whorf hypothesis holds that your language shapes your worldview, I'd be curious to know how your own perspective changed in that regard. Are Greek linguistic dreams different than English ones?

Your response to Browning's post is truly something else. It is the kind of thing that would run along the lines of what the gnostic writers had in mind for "followers" of Christ to experience. That's one thing that is very prominent in Pagel's book. A lot of passages in the gospel of Thomas deal with people having an internal experience of faith, rather than dourly repeating the Nicene Creed or something like that, which is largely an impersonal experience.

the Kingdom is inside you, and outside you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will see that it is you who are the children of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.​

To me, this is comparable to anything the Buddha would profess, it is very Zen like IMHO. And that is why this book is so fascinating. You can't blame the orthodox members from wanting to keep these kinds of writings out. Otherwise, you have some really radical notions floating about and face schisms on top of schisms with some people claiming to have had visions or to offer up a "higher" baptism that would ruin the simplicity and hierarchy of the church structure.

I find it very interesting that you quoted Rumi. I have only recently discovered some of the great works of the Sufi wanderers. One of my favorite books is Two Suns Rising: A collection of Sacred Writings by Jonathan Star. While I am largely an agnostic, the following lines are ones that have led me to read and re-read them in complete wonder.

Come, come, whoever you are,
Wanderer, worshipper, lover of leaving,
it doesn't matter.
Ours is a caravan of endless joy.
Even if you've broken your vows a hudnred times-
Come, come, yet again come!.​

After all of the passages regarding abstaining from drink, this is one that is just piercing to me. I've personally had some negative church experiences in the past. A lot of it wasn't maintaining a standard of perfection 100% of the time. What happens then? A person says "I'm damned anyways, might as well enjoy it!." They actually encourage the very thing they are purportedly against. To me, the above passage exposes the spiritual poverty of what I once believed in long ago. It shows the inadequacy and unworthy musings of that which I held in high esteems years before.

I cried, and I burned in that cry.
I kept silent, and I burned in that silence.
Then I stayed away from extremes-
I went right down the middle,
And I burned in that middle.​

To struggle, to year, to have an "apotrepsis" experience as you put it, is what the passage above reminds me of.

 

[Sitaram]

A lot of passages in the gospel of Thomas deal with people having an internal experience of faith...


When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will see ...

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.

Here is my reply to your PM, which I wrote before I read your post, and the above passage:

You may count yourself most fortunate for the diversity of your experiences and for the fact that what you are, what you have, is of your own choosing, and therefore truly yours and truly you.

Perhaps what all those people find missing is that very self, which you have found. They are trying to be someone else's something else.

I see you are someone of depth.

De profundis clamavii. ("Out of the depths have I cried unto thee").
Notice that the word for depth is profound.

I mentioned that when we read the writings of others, we are like a bell or musical instrument; we are struck by certain things and we sound or reverberate in response. Listen to the resounding response in the woods on a warm summer night as countless tiny creatures sound out to one another in darkness.

Your response to Browning's post is truly something else. It is the kind of thing that would run along the lines of what the gnostic writers had in mind for "followers" of Christ to experience. That's one thing that is very prominent in Pagel's book. A lot of passages in the gospel of Thomas deal with people having an internal experience of faith, rather than dourly repeating the Nicene Creed or something like that, which is largely an impersonal experience.

Your post and your PM strike me in a manner that inspires me to respond with this little poem I wrote not long ago. (I shall post this, and then return to add the poem with EDIT).

(back again... back again... jiggity jigg)



Crippled Strength


My strength of arms,
A crippled strength
From gripping crutches
Like a cross:

Arms, but no man,
I sing my borrowed lyrics,
A would-be bard,
Bowed under
Fardels, hard to bear.

My mental strength
The strength of scars
From years of abject tyranny.
Perfection becomes
Day laborer
For mediocrity.

I gather words
Which gather thoughts
As ordnance for siege
Against the hordes of
Scavenging everyman.

It is these fragments! Yes!
The fragments, all along!
The myriad of shattered shards
That built the Great Wall
Of my crumbling fortress
Guarding now an ostracised realm
A fictive similitude
Becoming more reality than real.

The only wealth remaining
Is to beg, borrow, steal.
My coffers become a coffin.

To one lone friend,
Invisible, I write
Alone in darkness
As I rail against the
Fading twilight,
A nothing diminishing more.

My pale guitar, stolen!
Stolen all, the words,
These thought, ideas,
Abandoned poems.
Nothing my own
And yet I wanted all.

Desire,
My mistress whore.
The stench of harpies
Lingers at the door.

And wanting
I have wantonly become
The nothing I now am,
Waiting,
Waiting for the end.

Now is the time for dirge and eulogy,
Sermon and litany.

I am no Christian,
But, I understand
That Christ,
Become sin,
Understand that man,
(Why else the darkened sky
And gibbering dead?)
That Christ become the harlot,
That Christ become the thief,
That Christ become idolater,
That eater of filthy things,
That Christ, become all things,
That someone might be saved.

And if you have no courage to become
The harlot, killer or incestuous thief,
If only for that moment of confession,
That honest moment in the morning light
When you say yes to wicked imaginings,
Deceitful above all things,
Then, can you understand?
Can you be honest?
Can you feel?
Can you visit on death row?
Can you heal?

Or are you Pharisees
In whited sepulchers
Lighting incense
To cover up
The stale air within?

- Sitaram

07-21-05 at 3:00 a.m.

==================================

As I wrote this poem, I was influence by something which Paul said in Corinthinians, something which has great literary power and potential, shall we call it "the power to become all things".

One major change was to add a lot more thats to this stanza:

That Christ,
Become sin,
Understand that man,
(Why else the darkened sky
And gibbering dead?)
That Christ become the harlot,
That Christ become the thief,
That Christ become idolater,
That eater of filthy things,
That Christ, become all things,
That someone might be saved.

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

In Sanskrit, the word mleccha means "eater of filthy things" and is a word which appears as early as the Vedas to denote a foreigner.

That really must have been something else when you started to dream in modern Greek. The Sopir-Whorf hypothesis holds that your language shapes your worldview, I'd be curious to know how your own perspective changed in that regard. Are Greek linguistic dreams different than English ones?

That's just it, to dream in Greek is to dream in any language. I did not mention that my Greek godfather (my baptism was at age 23), had married a Russian girl, Sonia, who emigrated to Athens and attended highschool. When I met her, she spoke Russian and Greek fluently, but no English. She was best friends with Maria Xaralampovna von Tiesenhausen (whom I mention in that other threads... whose link I shall fetch here shortly)..

http://thebookforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=120812#post120812

It was from Maria that I learned to speak Russian. But when I was with Sonia, we would speak a strange language, a mixture of Greek and Russian. Yet it seemed perfectly natural.

Speaking of many tongues, most people misundertand what happened with the apostles in the book of Acts on the day of Pentecost. It is not the case that one Apostle suddenly spoke Russian, and another suddenly spoke Hungarian. What happened is that one Apostle would speak, and ten people would simultaneously undertand in their ten native tongues.

Consider this verse from the Nag Hamadi text of Thomas:

http://www.gospelthomas.com/gospelthomas30.html

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there. Split the piece of wood, and I am there.

 

[Sitaram]

To Become All Things

I have been very influenced in my own writing by the notion of "becoming all things."

Here are some excerpts from my book which illustrate gnostic qualities:

The history of God and creation is the history of art in reverse. The big bang is abstract and postmodern. An absinthe soaked demiurge places a canvas of bare being on the tsimtsum floor of fantasy and savagely splashes disjointed, rabid colors of quantum, driving googles of naked, crazed angels to wallow and slither with barest feet. Drying across burdensome, spanning eons, these frantic antinomies come to symmetrical focus in the mayic vision of nebular consciousness as the classic romanticism of relativity, in procession through the doric, newtonian columns, perfected in indolence to the ideal temple and ark of the mosaic, and finally framed in historical archive of archetypal campfire flicker in dreamtime caverns.

Here I am, Odysseus strapped to the mast, Christ-like, in amidst a thronging multitude of oarsmen with wax-deafened ears, while the lusty naked Sirens flog my tormented vision with their glistening quivering breasts and reddening hirsuite loins, singing their forbidden song for me and me alone. I am enflamed by the perfumed scents of their secret places and can almost taste the salty condiments of their ardour and desire.

I am not speaking to you now. I am speaking to that other person (over there)... you see. Oh, I guess you can't see from where you are. But that other person has been reading me for a while now. They sort of started reading by accident, out of curiosity. But then, as they read, they began to know not just the words, but me, behind the words. And as they read, I opened up to them, and they opened up to me. And I showed them more and more of myself. I exposed myself slowly. I stripped before their very eyes until I was as naked as the wrestlers in the Palaestra. But then, I stripped down even more, exposing the atoms of Lucretius. And before they could catch their breath, or say no and leave the room, I stripped down to the very waves of Patanjali. But for all my nakedness, they never came to know the me that I know. They fell in love with the me that they thought I was, and that me became them, but a them they shall never show to me. So now, there they are, over there, looking somewhere else than my direction. And now, I feel slightly cold, being so naked. But that is ok, because if it werent for being that someone else that they love, I would never have been anyone at all. And it is the love which matters really, not the self. Is this not so?

Whenever I attempted to write, I sought words as weapons to immortally wound the souls of others. I wanted my words to by that exquisite virgin child dancing, secretly, shamelessly and seductively, naked before the gaping eyes and speechless opened mouths of a throng of aged renunciates
stunned motionless yet trembling at the sight of what they have
always longed for yet never dared imagine much less speak.

The Christ of my poem (above) is a very gnostic Christ, who becomes all things.

The word "Christ" ("Anointed") itself suggest the pouring of oil, sharing the root with chrismation and chrism.

We may pour oil. We may pour butter or ghee.

Compare this notion of pouring with a passage from the Bhagavad-gita:

I am the sacrifice.
I am the fire.
I am the butter that is poured into the fire.
I am the priest who poors.

My true nature is more radiant than 1000 suns.


Although all things are mine and I have no goals or desires, yet I never
cease my activity. Were I to cease my activity for one single instant
then countless worlds and beings would perish. Yet all those worlds
and beings are supported from moment to moment by but a single
spark of my energy and magnificance.


Of sacrifices I am Japa (silent mantra repetition).
Of syllables I am AUM.

I am Ram of Warriors.
I am Shiva.
I am Brahman.
I am being and non-being.
I am death itself, and destruction.
I am life and creation.


But most of all I am your intimate friend and associate.
I am waiting to play my flute for you.
I am waiting for you to join me in my divine lilas (passtimes).

 

[Sitaram]

Making a Point about the Gnostics

I would like to illustrate a certain point about the Gnostics, as well as other groups which vanished for one reason or another.

St. Vincent of Lerins in the 5th century gave as a standard for the orthodoxy of doctrine that which has been believed everywhere (ubique), always (semper), and by all (omnia). The formula of Vincent of Lerins became quite well known and frequently invoked, like a Pythagorean theorem of theology.

Of course, suddenly digging up a pouch full of ancient manuscripts in the desert, dating from a very early century, can certainly throw a monkey wrench into our ubique-semper-omnia machine, especially if they reveal a radical departure from what we thought of as mainstream belief and practice.

I would also like to mention a few things about the Qumran texts and how they rocked the boat.

I am writing this from work, and must leave shortly and continue later, so forgive the sketchy nature of this post. I will come back and polish it up.

The point that I want to make about vanished denominations, which died out, is related to a point that I try to make in my post "Survival Advantages of Mortality and Discord."

http://thebookforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7596

Let us imagine or make up a religious group or movement with certain characteristics and examine it for viability and robustness with regard to survival and growth.

Let's make up a name for the group, not Gnostics, but, let's say, Phosdics. Phosdic sounds similar to Gnostic. Al Capp, the creator of lil' Abner, had a cartoon detective character named "Fearless Phosdic."

Lets say that the Phosdics believe that the written word is bad, and it is better not to write down anything, but to have all knowledge as an oral tradition, passed from one person to another.

There was actually a Christian Bishop of the first or second century who mistrusted written scriptures, and favored an unwritten oral tradition. Jaroslav Pelikan mentions this bishop. I will have to look it up.

Let us say, furthermore that the Phosdics believe that it is wrong to proselytize converts. Phosdics believe that the spirit will move people to believe when they are ready. Phosdics do not believe in group corporate meetings or worship, but believe that each individual must practice in solitude.

The picture I am trying to paint of the Phosdics is a picture of a group which is doomed to disappear, because they are not cohesive and agressive enough to exercise hegemony and spread their influence.

What I am describing is a very simple minded, Darwinian, process of natural selection among religious groups. Groups with certain characteristics and behavior will naturally grow and spread and dominate, while other groups with different characteristics, possibly more admirable and noble charcteristics, will become extinct, because those characteristics do not lend themselves to survival.

Suppose the Phosdics are pacifists in the extreme. They may be in competition with other groups who believe that force and violence are necessary and noble. Even if the Phosdics are morally superior to the other groups, or more sincere, yet, it is the more warlike and agressive groups which are likely to survive and dominate.

 

[SFG75]

Very compelling information here Sitaram-I don't think I can do it all justice in one post, but I'll comment on a few things first. I really enjoyed your poem Crippled Strength. I in particular like the lines:

That Christ become the harlot,
That Christ become the thief,
That Christ become idolater,
That eater of filthy things,
That Christ, become all things,
That someone might be saved.

And if you have no courage to become
The harlot, killer or incestuous thief,
If only for that moment of confession,
That honest moment in the morning light
When you say yes to wicked imaginings,
Deceitful above all things,
Then, can you understand?
Can you be honest?
Can you feel?
Can you visit on death row?
Can you heal?​

I believe that experiencing god is something a lot of people want in a personal relationship with the divine. This bringing Christ into the human realm and the human condition is something that is truly profound. I have always believed that it won't be in the mega-churches and the well-polished pews that Christ will show up in. Instead, he will come from the darkest and most impoverished areas of the earth. He will be accompanied by those who are sick, and are looked upon as being "sinners" by the faithful at large. The tired orthodoxy of Christ banishing the "sinners" and the devil are exactly the reasons why the mainline denominations are in serious trouble membership wise. Only those who seek to obtain members through them experiencing god are growing.

I really can't say that I write or that I do a lot to nourish my own spiritual life. I do remember doing a guided meditation session at a catholic church in my hometown that was very influential and somewhat along the lines of what your poem is roughly about. I was at a point where I thought that I was beyond any redemption and buried in "sin" due to the warped teachings of a cult that wears a smile and a shirt and tie in public. During this session, we were to see ourselves on a beach and then the guiding somehow stopped. I remember the scenary as being intensely golden and being approached by Christ who sat by me and gazed upon me without any judgment whatsoever. I remember feeling intensely guilty for my "sins" and not worthy of being present, waiting for the ever present boot to fall as promised through years of fret and dread, keenly nourished throughout my early years. I received a necklace with a cross from him and he closed my hand and smiled. No words were exchanged, but for the first time, I began to see that my struggle was his. Perhaps it still is.

This episode has taught me more than any hours ever spent in a youth church program or listening to high church officials.

 

[Sitaram]

Persecution and the Art of Writing

Thanks for such a nice reply. I so look forward to having a place like this literary forum where I may exercise and stimulate my mind each day.

I realize our thread is on Elaine Pagel and her work on the Nag Hammadi manuscripts and the Gnostics, and I fully intend to stick to that topic, with only a minimal amount of rambling, and to strictly avoid gratuitous episodes of religious talk which would, of course, violate the rules here.

When we speak of the work of a scholar or scientist such as Elaine Pagel, we are speaking about a research activity which has to potential to shake or topple previously held assumptions or beliefs. We are also talking about persecution; both the persecution and suppression of writings such as the Gnostics or Qumran, and also the potential persecution or censorship of scholars and scientists whose work may imbalance the status quo. Galileo is a famous example of such an earth shaker, who was censured, but recently pardoned.

Persecution has the power to inspire. I was inspired to write my poem Crippled Strength in the wee hours of the morning because I was bitter over the persecution which I experienced regarding my writings. You have only to point your search engine at "is shakespeare more tragic" (the phrase in double quotes) and you will understand what I am saying. As Lord Acton once said, "Power tends to corrupt.."


The Gnostics were obviously persecuted and eventually disappeared.

It is curious to speculate that, on some level, Elaine Pagel herself may have felt persecuted because of that unpleasant dispute regarding her Jewish schoolmate and his estate in the hereafter.

When we feel persecuted, or unworthy (which I suppose is a form of self-persecution) then we often motivated to do a variety of things. We may act out of fear and bury our manuscripts in the desert sands, which is exactly what the Gnostics did (which is why they were there to be discovered by that nomadic Bedouin), or, we may possibly metaphorically bury and conceal our forbidden thoughts and beliefs in esoteric symbolism, allegory and innuendo, so that we may "say without really saying" to whose who "read between the lines."

Of course, any scholar or scientist "worth their salt" (now there is a popular Biblical phrase), would want to eagerly analyze and research such a treasure find as the Nag Hammadi manuscripts. And I am not trying to accuse Elaine Pagel of being motivated solely by some vendetta. But certainly, uncovering some lost text which "rocks the boat" (or sink the Bismarck) of the traditional establishment is a way to topple ivory towers or towers of Babel.

In your post, above, you share several personal experiences which are quite germane to our investigation of Elaine Pagel, her writings, and the Gnostics themselves and their writings.

You mention your own personal sense of persecution and alienation because of what you are (your essential nature).

Censorship, persecution, ostracism, exile and book-burning are all vital dimensions in the history of literature and art. Consider the tremendous court battles that took place in the United States in order to make possible the publication of works like Joyce's Ulysses.

I have posted, in the non-Fiction section of this forum, regarding a book which will be a very useful companion in our discussion of Pagel's works:

http://forums.thebookforum.com/showthread.php?p=125056#post125056

The work of scholars such as Elaine Pagel has the potential to disturb the equilibrium of the conservative status quo by suggesting that there were, and perhaps still are, alternative ways to understand and believe, and that what some today take for granted as immutable and unquestionable is not necessarily "written in stone."

I have been frequently mentioning Jaroslav Pelikan in this forum. I just pulled his five paperback volumes, "The Christian Tradition - A history of the Development of Doctrine," off the shelf, and I would like to quote an excerpt from Volume I, "The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600 B.C.E.)."

from page 173

Amid all the varieties of response to the Gnostic systems, Christians were sure that the Redeemer did not belong to some lower order of divine reality, but was God hmself. The oldest surviving sermon of the Christian church after the New Testament opened with the words: "Brethern, we ought so to think of Jesus Christ as of God, as of the judge of the living and the dead. And we ought not to belittle our salvation; for when we belittle him, we expect also to receive little."

...

The oldest surviving pagan report about the church described Christians as gathering before sunrise and "singing a hym to Christ as though to a god."

If we take that earliest sermon at face value, then apparently, in those early first years after the crucifixion, it was not yet hard and fast dogma to consider Christ as theanthropos (god-man).

Even the pagans seem to be poignantly aware of Christian ambivalence on this point, since for them, the worship of a Ceasar as a god was nothing novel.

In fact, if we examine the opening words of the Gospel of Luke we shall see a tentative hesitancy rather than stone tablets down from Sinai:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

from the NIV translation

Luke's tentative opening is hardly comparable to the Islamic tradition of the angel, Gabreel, swooping up Muhammed and shaking him until his teeth rattled, saying, "Proclaim! Proclaim!" Such rhetoric as Gabreel's certainly grabs one's attention.


Scholarly and scientific research into discoveries such as the Nag Hammadi manuscripts, or the Qumran manuscripts, or archeological finds, or DNA testing of relics, etc. all have the potential to rattle cages and rock boats.

Archeological finds and textual analysis can be a threat to the establishment.

The first Caliph to assume rule after the death of Prophet Muhammed ordered that all variant copies of the Qu'ran be gathered and burned. This simple historical event alerts us to the fact that the presumably immutable word of God had indeed been tampered with even during the life of the Prophet.

To this very day, authorities in the U.A.E. forbid archeological research in Mecca and Medina, possibly for fear that some artifact might be unearthed which would open a proverbial "can of worms."

There will always be those who wish to topple the sand castles of others. Consider the perennial feud between Faulkner and Hemingway. Faulkner said Hemingway "was never guilty of sending his readers to a dictionary" and Hemingway had his own rebuttle.

One way to attack something is with historical or archeological evidence. Another way to attack or discredit an idea is from within, by finding contradictions or discrepancies.

Bertrand Russell, in his "Why I Am Not A Christian" cleverly points out that if God is omnipresent, then surely God must be within the heart of Satan. But, if Satan has God in his heart, then Satan cannot be all bad. But, should it be the case that God is not present in Satan's heart, why then, we have discovered one place where God is not and, hence we have caste some doubt upon the ubiquity of God's omnipresence.

Perhaps we should call these the logical artifacts which noetic archeologists excavate from deconstructed texts.

Here are two more:

1.) If there is a purpose to sickness and suffering, why do people
constantly seek healing miracles? But if there is NO PURPOSE to
sickness and suffering, then WHY anticipate mercy and favors from
the CREATOR of such a world, which contains pointless sufferings and
disappointments?

2.) If we assume that God is BOTH eternally perfect (complete) AND
ALSO perfectly WISE, then here is a problem: Since God is COMPLETE,
there was no need for creation therefore, God performed a
meaningless, senseless act in creating the universe; yet that
contradicts the assumptiom of God's WISDOM. But, if there WAS A
PURPOSE for creation, then GOD lacked something PRIOR to creation,
WHICH contradicts the assumption of God's completeness.

Note that #2 in the above is only a serious criticism if we assume that there is only one universe, rather than a multiverse of universes within universes within universes, and if we assume that that time moves in only one direction, forward, and if we assume a Kantian world of time and space and causality. If, however, there are many dimensions, and universes, and if creation-preservation-destruction is cyclical rather than linear, and if Buddhist notion of "dependent co-arising" and the Jain notion of anekantavada (many-pointedness) rules the day over western, linear "cause and effect" and "binary thinking," well, then #2 is not such a serious criticism.

I have done my own share of textual archeology and excavating. I attempted to demonstrate that Martin Luther of the Reformation based his entire theology of "Sola Fides" upon a mistranslation and misunderstanding of one verse in Habbakuk. I also attempted to demonstrate that the final state of being, as described in The Book of Revelation, is actually a form of the very Pantheism which Christian theologians have attacked for the past hundred years.

 

[SFG75]

The funny thing about Beyond Belief is that although she bases her work on the gospel of St. Thomas, she really isn't advocating the incorporation of those works into the modern christian canon. She does relate her own personal experience with the death of her son and how people experience Christ in their own way(and as you've mentioned in the Crippled Struggle poem) but in the end, she leaves several open-ended questions, most of which are along the lines of: where do we go now? People like C. Wright Mills who did landmark research, weren't afraid to predict a course for the future. In the case of Mills, an unabashed fan of Marxism, the path was through a conflict theory understanding of life. For all of the talk about professors who have personal vendettas, I'd say there is just a middle area where a lot of them want to publish something new, but not stake out on a new course in order to gain tenure and to get published. I don't know if Pagels is one of these mushy-middle academics, but she certainly isn't Noam Chomsky by any means, a person who could pretty much care less what others say about their forays into boldly making predictions and (gasp!) actually holding a viewpoint.

I too, have read Why I'm not a Christian and I absolutely loved it. Pascal's infamous wager was rushed head on by Russell, who I thought did a great job of taking it apart. Russell's faith in mankind and it's ability to forge ahead and potentially do anything it wants to do, reminded me of the positivism that many intellectuals had before WWI with notions that mankind was on a permanent, upward trajectory and that technology and general progress was going to save us all. Instead, technology gave us the machine guns in trench warfare and a disillusioned time afterwards. I do agree with his viewpoint on progress, and it is something that I could see an agnostic/atheist couple using say......should they face terrible grief.

I raised my own personal experience not as an off-topic rant or expression of personal joy, but rather, to highlight the potential of such things arising within the christian church. To a certain extent, many mainline churches are moving to this kind of "guided meditation" and what not in order to help people experience Christ. At the same time, they run the risk of people's wild imaginations(such as mine?) perhaps potentially "telling" them to disregard respected dogma and items such as the Nicean creed. If this becomes too prominant, then you have the potential for what Pagels outlines in the early history of christianity-splits within splits of churches and certain individuals suddenly espousing a new and different way to experience Christ through what they have personally undergone.

 

[SFG75]

The first Caliph to assume rule after the death of Prophet Muhammed ordered that all variant copies of the Qu'ran be gathered and burned. This simple historical event alerts us to the fact that the presumably immutable word of God had indeed been tampered with even during the life of the Prophet.

To this very day, authorities in the U.A.E. forbid archeological research in Mecca and Medina, possibly for fear that some artifact might be unearthed which would open a proverbial "can of worms."

Abu Bakr!, I love teaching the history of Arabia and Islam to my 7th graders, we have a big unit over it and I personally find it extremely interesting. I mentioned previously my affection for Sufi writings. I may be too judgmental of Christian orthodoxy, but it does have something to offer people. While it doesn't necessarily "do it" for me, I've seen older couples approach the altar to receive the eucharist and in witnessing that, it's clear that they experience Christ through the structure and regimented service. I don't know if older folks would necessarily have the same feelings that I do upon reading esoteric spiritual texts and other writings outside of a community of like-minded people who share the same faith. My grandparents were members of the United Methodist church, which despite my agnostic inclinations, I deeply respect and admire.

Without the crack-down on mystical sects within various religions, you have to wonder about what those given belief systems would look like if they were tolerated, if not given support by a government or two. While both Christianity and Islam are not monolithic in any way, it would be interesting to speculate on how each would be different if radical writings weren't stuffed in jars in caves to be discovered many years later.

 

[Sitaram]

I wish you could print out this thread of ours, place it in an envelope, and hand it to Elaine Pagel when you attend that event. Wouldn't it be interesting to hear the reactions of an actual living author to some of the things that we say here?

I would love to see Thomas Pynchon or Kurt Vonnegut or even that old reclusive luddite, Salinger, join a forum and comment upon what has been said regarding their works and ideas.

Regarding the Sufi teaching stories, Idres Shah is quite a worthwhile read. Robert Ornstein, in his works on The Psychology of Consiciousness frequently refers to the teaching stories of the comical Mullah Nasrudin.

"What is Fate?" Nasrudin was asked by a scholar.

Nasrudin answered: "An endless succession of intertwined events, each influencing the other."

The scholar objected, "That is hardly a satisfactory answer. I believe in cause and effect."

"Very well," said Nasrudin, "look at that." He pointed to a procession passing in the street."That man is being taken to be hanged. Is that because someone gave him a silver piece and enabled him to buy the knife with which he committed the murder or because someone saw him do it or because nobody stopped him?"

I personally suspect that things like the Rubayat of Omar Khayyam and the Mevlevi order which arose from the poetry of Rumi are examples of the phenomenon of Persecution and the Art of Writing, as an attempt to express something forbidden in orthodox Islamic Persia.

I frequently mention Persecution and the Art of Writing which is the title of a small book by Leo Strauss. Since our non-Fiction forum is needy, I shall take that book off my shelf and make a post there. Then I can say a few things about it which will be helpful to various literary discussions:

http://forums.thebookforum.com/showthread.php?p=125147#post125147