Bright Light. Big Questions. (split from bobby & irene)

[Irene Wilde]

Stand back everyone! I think I'm having a flash-back! I was just browsing the "Interview with God" thread and suddenly, I was back in time, in a very different place, reading the brilliant words of my chum Abdorinbo! It was so unbelievably refreshing! See what happens when you can spark Mr. Burns' considerable brain power?

Of course, I have a few words on the subject myself, but I need to come down off this flash-back high to organize them.

 

[Irene Wilde]

Ok. First, watching that "Interview" reminded me of Stuart Smalley's "Daily Affirmations." Second, my initial reaction was to post this, so I will:

God (Take 1)
(Ian Hunter)

God said to me "Gonna kick your ass - 'cos all you do is ask ask ask
All that energy looking for me when I'm sitting here inside you - plain to see
How I built you cell for cell gave you sights to see - gave you tales to tell
Even let you help yourself for a while - to take some weight off this busy child"

I said to God "I found you out - I know what this world is all about!"
God said "Stop - don't scramble your brain - my opponent's been messing you around again
See him and me are enemies and we play little games for galaxies
And he's inside you - 'n I am too - so here we are - just the three of you"

"Oh we made mistakes - too many cards - but making human beings can be hard
A God gets tired of playing so much chess - he wishes his God would get him out of his mess"
I said to God "What's it like to die" He said "It's as plain as the sea and sky
Conception was him and me and you - when your batteries fade we all just move on"

I said to God "Who's winning this game - is the devil in front" He said "Is that his name
You know I've been so busy I never asked - I never looked up from this awesome task"
I said to God "What's good 'n bad" He said "It's just something you've got to have
It don't mean nothing to us up here - but your primitive people - you gotta have fear"

I said to God "Do I think for myself" He said I told you once you just help yourself
Don't forget you're composed of three, your thinking comes from him and me"
I said to God "How big are you, is there a religion - is it true
How big's the universe - is time - the same for you as my life is to mine"


God said "If all the things that made worlds float - were all to part - then you would note
The size of him and the size of me - and that's how big we both shall be"

He said "The universe is small - just like some fortune-teller's ball
And we both sit down - and we play the game - when somebody wins it all starts again"

"There's no religion - you did that - it helps to keep your little leaders fat
Like faith 'n superstition stay - to help you pass the time away
But when you talk of time and life - it makes me think of circles, heights
Expansion is the clue - your dreams - are nearer than you've ever been"

"You see my little toy to think - is from two bowls of wine to drink
Don't take too much or you may drown - behave yourself - see you around..."

************

My next response to was to recall another conversation that ran very similar to this. I think the direction it ended up taking was the idea that eventually the paths of philosophy and science invariably will have a meeting point and the Einstein may one day become known as one of the world's great theologians. The "answers" everyone looks for will come when the lines get blurred, when the connection between science, humanity, and theology -- the connectedness of all things, all beings, all the cosmos -- becomes evident to each individual the "answers" will follow, and when we get there, chances are who won't even have been asking the right questions.

Oh and Mr. Burns -- I'm re-reading Krishnamurti, this time without an agenda.

 

[bobbyburns]

I'd be interested to know what your take is on the whole zen thing. just to clarify, I use that word "zen" because I don't know what else to call it. I know krishnamurti refused to call it anything so that people wouldn't create a cult following around him. for whatever reason I've settled on calling it zen. it's not too limited, I don't think.

*by the way, try doing a google search for david bohm sometime. he was one of einstein's colleagues, and a close friend of krishnamurti. just going back to what you were saying, I think you'll find he did a decent job touching on the relationship between zen, science and creativity. the discussions he had with k are interesting, too.

 

[Irene Wilde]

I will give Mr. Bohm (or Dr. Bohm if that be the case) a google later today. I have to go have a conference with the little one's principal this morning and hash a few things out. I'll also give you some thoughts on the "zen" thing (as good a word as any, I suppose).

Let me know how you enjoyed the latest Ronno licks I sent. It's not a rocker, but there's some sweet playing on that. Did you know, even though he was a contemporary of the likes of Brian May -- Mick was never really a gear-head. One of his favorite "effects" was playing slide with a Bic lighter! Mick always came from the song first, not the solo, and that was his greatness -- not technical trickery or blinding speed, just an uncanny sense of knowing what notes to hit.

 

[Irene Wilde]

I'd be interested to know what your take is on the whole zen thing. just to clarify, I use that word "zen" because I don't know what else to call it. I know krishnamurti refused to call it anything so that people wouldn't create a cult following around him. for whatever reason I've settled on calling it zen. it's not too limited, I don't think.

I'm not sure I can give you a good response right now, Mr. Burns. I was reading about 20 pages of Krishnamurti yesterday and --I can't say I'm thinking it through, because that's not it -- but I'm still experiencing it. It's hard to explain, but it's like an internal chain reaction of relationships and connections going on in a way my mind can't define; something more along the lines of a "gut feeling" than a thought process. Does that make sense?

I'll probably sit down and read those same 20 pages again today, too, as time permits.

 

[bobbyburns]

I watched caddyshack today. for some reason I never get sick of that movie. I have a friend who is so similar to chevy chase's character, it's almost scary. he came up with the game zen frisbe golf. the way he explained it to me is that it's pretty much the same as regular frisbe golf, only you're constantly asking yourself, "who is throwing the frisbe?" I think once the weather is nice, I'll get my discs and try it out.

 

[Irene Wilde]

I watched caddyshack today. for some reason I never get sick of that movie. I have a friend who is so similar to chevy chase's character, it's almost scary. he came up with the game zen frisbe golf. the way he explained it to me is that it's pretty much the same as regular frisbe golf, only you're constantly asking yourself, "who is throwing the frisbe?" I think once the weather is nice, I'll get my discs and try it out.

I relate more to the gopher.

 

[Irene Wilde]

Mr. Burns,

Was reading up on your Mr. Bohm. Indeed, a quantum physicist who was connecting the dots between in the inner, and the outer, and the human. The closer you look, the more the lines blur.

However, I was particularly interested in his "Dialogue" process. It was curious to read about since, as I am presently living a life without goals, (how shameless can one get?) my own "experiments," if you will, have more to do with silence. We often speak of how we "can't hear ourselves think," but I wonder if we realize how true that is -- including the bombardment of thought that clutters our thinking, which isn't thought (incorporating new knowledge based on existing memory), but experiencing ourselves in the moment, a present and dynamic process.

You know that I have always been one to, not only have goals, but also to "process" thought through writing, through words. What I'm trying now is to cut out the words, to remove the clutter of "thought" from my thinking, and have the silence, not only of environment, but of conditioning, programming, and reaction. In a way it creates a new non-verbal vocabulary. Maybe it can't be communicated, but perhaps it can be understood, and the result, while it may never find itself on page, can be manifest in a different way of living.

I've probably even lost you on this one, but I wanted you to know I'm still hanging around.

 

[bobbyburns]

thanks, irene. you're a valued friend. it's kind of interesting how oneness manifests itself differently in each person. for my friend tom, it comes out verbally. his explanations are beautiful. for steve, my aikido instructor, it definitely comes out in the martial arts. I don't know, maybe for you it will come out in your writing. in a sense, letting go of conditioning, which is dead knowledge, invites creativity.

 

[Irene Wilde]

thanks, irene. you're a valued friend.

Thank you for kind words. Of course, this is only the start of new journey for me. So much has ended and so much more has not worked. I'm way past due for a reassessment. So the timing of this conversation couldn't be better.

As for oneness, I think some of us run across it by accident off and on in our lives, however, embracing a sustained and lasting oneness is where we often stumble. So for now, I'll be content to experiment. Your encouragement, however, is greatly appreciated.

 

[Crystal]

thanks, irene. you're a valued friend. it's kind of interesting how oneness manifests itself differently in each person. for my friend tom, it comes out verbally. his explanations are beautiful. for steve, my aikido instructor, it definitely comes out in the martial arts. I don't know, maybe for you it will come out in your writing. in a sense, letting go of conditioning, which is dead knowledge, invites creativity.

I am dying to know this ONENESS thing! help me out here.

 

[bobbyburns]

maybe you can help her, irene? I've been really out of it for the past few days.

 

[Crystal]

Sorry for having intervened.

Best wishes.

 

[Irene Wilde]

I am dying to know this ONENESS thing! help me out here.

As I'm sure Mr. Burns knows, there's no process, no training, no multi-step program to follow. If you go back to the "Interview with God" thread and read some of what Mr. Burns wrote there, it might give you a starting place --particularly what he writes about conditioning. To borrow from his "Star Wars" analogy, try "unlearning" what you think you know. What's "known" is often what puts us in conflict, makes us miserable, gives us pain. The book he and I are discussing is called "Freedom from the Known" by J. Krishnamurti. I'm not recommending it nor am I not not recommending it. It's simply the launching point for our discussion.

 

[bobbyburns]

basically oneness is this ... for one, it's not an experience or any kind of enlightenment you might think you've acquired. we're saying none of that is important. the reason there isn't oneness in our lives is because of the self, which is a kind of brain damage that occurs when thought separates psychologically from the rest of the world. think of it like this, all thought is just a chemical reaction to experience. when a car veers into your lane, thought reacts by telling you to get out of the way. it's simple intelligence, and as long is it stays like that, everything is hunky dory. however, when thought tries thinking on itself, or, if you want, when the reaction reacts to itself, it creates the illusion that it's the stimulus, the experience, the cause, which is why it separates what it experiences inwardly from what it experiences outwardly. it becomes this arbitrary center. can you see how that poses a problem? all that energy is wasted while thought is chasing its tail. now when a cars veers into your lane, thought reacts first by perceiving it to be a threat, then by blaming it on the other person, and finally by sustaining that feeling of conflict long after the "threat" has passed. the problem is that you observe it as your experience, but you don't exist. consciousness does not exist within you, you exist within it. so what krishnamurti is saying is that, while physically we are individual, psychologically we are not. the observer is the observed.

 

[Irene Wilde]

Sorry for having intervened.

Best wishes.

No apologies needed, and feel free to jump in and ask questions.

And I have an example of "thought" gone awry that I think is very simple. A friend went to a local restaurant, it happened to be a Mexician-style Seafood restaurant, in what we will call Small City. This friend came down with food poisoning. The simple thought, the clear thought, would be don't eat that dish at that restaurant again, or maybe, on the outside, just don't eat at that restaurant again. However, as Mr. Burns explained, thought has a tendency to chase its own tail, especially where fear is concerned. So my friend stopped eating all Mexican food and all seafood, hesitated to eat at any restaurant in Small City, and since he was wearing a blue shirt on that day, stopped wearing that blue shirt. That's what thought does with conditioning, how it creates fear, perpetuates fear, and keeps us within in "known."

Have you ever had an experience where you have taken an instant liking or disliking to someone and only later realized your reaction to them was based, not on who that person is, but because they resembled, either emotionally or physically, someone else you know? Your mind responded based upon the conditioning.

Of course, Mr. Burns and I aren't discussing this to get my friend to wear his blue shirt again, or to stop my fatal attraction to tall slender Brit-boys. In fact, in my case, having the discussion is simple intrinsic goodness. I want to see where our discussion will lead us without having an objective in mind, without a predetermined goal. Too often people want "answers," and they want answers that will give them what they want: "make my wife love me again," "make me rich," "make me thin," "make me happy." You won't find answers here, but maybe you'll find some new questions, or maybe we'll bore you senseless. I don't know.

I watched "High Plains Drifter" the other day -- Was Clint Eastwood a liberal anti-hero or a conservative viligante? Either way, I still enjoy that movie.

 

[bobbyburns]

apparently clint eastwood directed high plains drifter as a tribute to sergio leone, the man responsible for shooting him into stardom. I picked up once upon a time in the west on monday, but I haven't watched it yet. I like sergio leone, though. he was a powerful influence as a director on eastwood. as for eastwood's character in high plains drifter, I'm more inclined to think he was a conservative vigilante, because he treats indecent people the way they should be treated from his perspective. there's no clearly defined good or evil in the film, which is why I think it was so successful. the characters are more three-dimensional than in most westerns.

 

[RitalinKid]

Excuse me for butting in, but I'm going to have to pick up Krishnamurti's book Freedom from the Known this weekend. I've been keeping up with your conversation but have had nothing to add until now. I read the first chapter at Amazon, and Krishnamurti expresses some of the same thoughts that I've been tripping over for a while now. He uses some different language than I would use, but the general ideas seem similar.

Topics like this are part of the reason I knew I would enjoy joining this board. I'm questioning ideas, and it's comforting to run across other people on a similar path.

 

[bobbyburns]

I was thinking, it seems there's a strange combination of contentment and misery you've got to have in order for any of this to get a foothold. on one hand, if you try to explain zen to someone who is homeless and starving, he'll be too distracted with all his problems to listen. on the other hand, if you try to explain it to someone who is wealthy and has a lot of ambition, religiously or whatever, you'll inevitably hit a communication barrier. it's like you have to be content enough with life to put all your energy into it, but miserable enough so that you have nothing to lose.

 

[Irene Wilde]

I think what leads people in this general direction is an underlying, or perhaps not so underlying, feeling that what they've relied upon in the past has not worked, be it faith in religion, faith in country, faith in themselves, whatever set of ideals, values, fundamentals -- indoctrinated or self-taught -- are not sustaining, not at the individual level and not at the global level. A great many people get that far, it's that next step -- going beyond looking for a "trade-in" of one system of beliefs for another, going beyond the Band-Aid approach -- that's a difficult step to take.

Two tips for reading Krishnamurti:

1) Don't expect to read it once, have some mystical revelation that with Change Your Life and be done with it. Expect to be reading it again and again, agreeing sometimes, disagreeing other times, and looking at what can sometimes appear to be contradictions.

2) Slow down. There's no prize for finishing the book in one sitting. I find myself setting the book down at the end of a few pages or a few paragraphs in order to contemplate the words. Sometimes to ensure that I'm understanding what's being said, and sometimes feeling the realization of what I've read and a sort of change reaction -- an internal falling of dominoes and things "click." (That's my own technical term, perhaps Mr. Burns has a different phrase for it.)