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discussion question about plot??? Anyone wish to take a gander??

laboi_22

New Member
As a novice writer and a devout reader, I often question what makes a person read and write the way they do. In particular what makes readers read novels that are poorly written? For example: last week a young ACE worker at the hospital (these are students in school for nursing who obtain jobs at our hospital to gain experience, they follow the nurses around and take notes and ask questions and get paid to do so) anyway Jessica was following me on the evening shift. We got on the topic about books. She knew that I was a dedicated novel consumer. She had recently purchased The DaVinci Code and was halfway through the book. (Keep in mind this topic has nothing to do with that book. Just keep reading.) She was so smitten by the book. She couldn’t stop talking about it. She also told me, and I found this hard to believe that she had never read a novel before since she was a young girl; being a college student obtaining a Bachelor’s degree that just amazed me.

Anyway I told her how I too had enjoyed the story, but that Dan Brown’s writing was crap. I recently went back and re-read the book to find out why everyone is so head strong about the book being poorly written. When I paid attention to specific detail, I understood why. She didn’t notice anything and thought that Dan Brown was an excellent writer.

So here’s the discussion: If your plot is so strong can you actually be a poor writer and have people drool over your book? Do people who don’t write or know any better just read books without ever noticing that it’s poorly written? Do they not notice because the plot pulls them in so much?

I was once told here that plot is everything that if you have good plot you will be big. I didn’t think that was true especially since I found character development and dialogue, scene description, and other aspects more important to plot, but now I wonder if that’s true. If you have good plotting techniques will you make it? Even with poor literary quality?
 
As a reader you have to get past the first page to find out whether the plot is any good. That's a big hurdle if the writing sucks.
 
laboi_22 said:
As a novice writer and a devout reader, I often question what makes a person read and write the way they do
This is unique for every individual.

So here’s the discussion: If your plot is so strong can you actually be a poor writer and have people drool over your book?
Yes, and this drooling comes in two sources: drool from those that salivate over strictly plot-driven work, and drool from those that salivate because because the horrible work has put them nearly comatose.

Do people who don’t write or know any better just read books without ever noticing that it’s poorly written? Do they not notice because the plot pulls them in so much?
Sometimes you one can only handle so much literary before briefly switching over to plot-driven fast-reads books. Guilty.

I was once told here that plot is everything that if you have good plot you will be big. I didn’t think that was true especially since I found character development and dialogue, scene description, and other aspects more important to plot, but now I wonder if that’s true. If you have good plotting techniques will you make it? Even with poor literary quality?
For some plot is everything. And yes, it is possible to become rich and famous with garbage lining your written pages. Walk into any trendy book-, music-, movie-, coffee-store, and check out what's new in fiction. Plot is indeed important, but without memorable characters, a decent setting, a distinct voice, or a freaken theme, a book is easily forgotten a few days after it is read. Personally I find descriptive setting, and finely constructed charactes a plus.

(I know I failed to capture every aspect of what makes a great book shine, but I think I hit a few nails on the head).
 
sirmyk said:
without memorable characters, a decent setting, a distinct voice, or a freaken theme, a book is easily forgotten a few days after it is read.

(I know I failed to capture every aspect of what makes a great book shine, but I think I hit a few nails on the head).


You forgot polish. ;)
 
I didn't mean to make this a discussion about Dan Brown. So please don't think so. I can name several authors that I find IMHO that their writing is not that of Stephen King and other literary giants.

There are a bunch of readers out there that don't recognize bad writing. When they read they read and focus all their attention on the plot of the story as a whole.

As a reader you have to get past the first page to find out whether the plot is any good. That's a big hurdle if the writing sucks.

What if you don't know any better, but the story is still good.

Thats my whole point. Here at the book forum lots of you guys read and put it down quickly if you dispise the writing paying no attention whatsoever to the plot. Instead you all focus on how to make the writing as good as the plot. Thats perfectly understandable and is a given here hence the purpose of this forum. To which I'm personally greatful, but those who don't have any clue like the young girl who read Dan Brown, she thinks he's the best author out there. I'm glad for her because reading is an enjoyment and I'm glad that she began to start reading regardless of who it is. What's the meaning of life if it were not for fiction!!! :)
 
So what is the question? Can you write a good book without good writing? I think not. Can you write a crap book that sells well? Happens all the time.
 
That is my exact point, but what's the real question you ask? If you're not a good writer and sell books what does that say for those who are good writer's and don't sell any books. Afterall writer's don't put their books on the market just for the hell of it, it's not only a joy to write, but it's also a career. Just as with any other job it has to be lucrative for you to stick with it. Right? Or else you just do it for fun on your spare time and work during the day for a job you despise...(my situation)

Anyway it was just rhetorical. Are there more readers out there who read just for plot or are there more readers out there that read because the writing is good therein making the story enjoyable....

One more thing-what about an excellent written book with and empty plot?? Just something to think about! Do "good writers" include all literary aspects in their work? If they don't the last thing they should lack would be plot right?
 
laboi_22 said:
That is my exact point, but what's the real question you ask? If you're not a good writer and sell books what does that say for those who are good writer's and don't sell any books. Afterall writer's don't put their books on the market just for the hell of it, it's not only a joy to write, but it's also a career. Just as with any other job it has to be lucrative for you to stick with it. Right? Or else you just do it for fun on your spare time and work during the day for a job you despise...(my situation)

Anyway it was just rhetorical. Are there more readers out there who read just for plot or are there more readers out there that read because the writing is good therein making the story enjoyable....

One more thing-what about an excellent written book with and empty plot?? Just something to think about! Do "good writers" include all literary aspects in their work? If they don't the last thing they should lack would be plot right?

laboi, I think plot is really important in some kinds of books. For instance, I just read A Wild Sheep Chase by Murakami (and posted extensively on it), which really didn't follow through at the plot level. I was really let down by that, even though the writing was very good. On the other hand, some books just don't rely on plot, like The Shipping News, in which the story is really about character development, which is done perfectly. I love that book, but it's not about plot.
 
So in essence to each their own. I guess there's no use to comment about authors who lack in certian areas because there are some out there that will love his/her work.

Thanks guys for the insight!
 
Enrichment vs. Entertainment

Sometimes I read for the pure sake of entertainment; other times I read to enrich my understanding of life.
 
laboi_22 said:
So in essence to each their own. I guess there's no use to comment about authors who lack in certian areas because there are some out there that will love his/her work.

Thanks guys for the insight!

No, I think it's worth discussing. In partcular, are there certain kinds of books that should have good plots? I think anything with the ambition of being a mystery should have a strong, interesting plot. A family-drama type book has its own narrative arc most of the time, as the important characters resolve their difficulties.
 
novella said:
No, I think it's worth discussing.
Very much so.

I think anything with the ambition of being a mystery should have a strong, interesting plot. A family-drama type book has its own narrative arc most of the time, as the important characters resolve their difficulties.
Peter Straub's latest two books (Lost Boy Lost Girl, and the follow-up In the Night Room) are two good examples of mystery with great plot and great character development. They both won Bram Stoker awards in their respective years (2003, 2004) as well as many other awards of various merit.
 
laboi_22 said:
I didn't mean to make this a discussion about Dan Brown. So please don't think so. I can name several authors that I find IMHO that their writing is not that of Stephen King and other literary giants.

No problem. I think King is a hack writer too.

But there are different ways for someone to be a bad writer. King's prose isn't clumsy. It isn't a struggle to read. I happen to find it flat and formulaic and childish, so that I get bored in spite of the plot. But for other people, it might be a matter of the prose at least not interfering with the plot, and that might be good enough for them.
 
Mari said:
No problem. I think King is a hack writer too.

But there are different ways for someone to be a bad writer. King's prose isn't clumsy. It isn't a struggle to read. I happen to find it flat and formulaic and childish, so that I get bored in spite of the plot. But for other people, it might be a matter of the prose at least not interfering with the plot, and that might be good enough for them.
King has a distinct voice. Rip the cover (and any other give-aways) from any King book, short story, essay, etc. and his words are still easy to recognize as King's. I admire that. Voice is key.
 
laboi_22 said:
Are there more readers out there who read just for plot or are there more readers out there that read because the writing is good therein making the story enjoyable....

Well lets see, who has sold more books?

Dan Brown

Yann Martel (hope I spelled that right?)

What exaclty are you trying to do with this question? To me, I think you're looking for someone to tell you to pay more attention to your plot/story, or for someone to tell you to pay more attention to how well you've written it.

They kind of go hand in hand.

If there was a specific formula this would be easy wouldn't it?

You can either have one, the other, both , or neither, and the only way you'll know if you have a successful book is if people buy it.

It sounds to me like you want somebody to tell you how to be successful. It's not that easy. There is no concrete, specific answer. Maybe I've read this thread the wrong way....
 
Again to each their own. That's what I wanted to find out. What do people label as good reads. Plotless stories or prose strong stories. I think that lot's of people here would bed to differ on your opinion about King, but then again it is your opinion.

I seem to think that you can write a great story using strong plot and fall short else were and be liked by many. There are a lot of people out there though that will quickly bash a book because of it poor writing. To them it's poor because the author might not have followed all the rules as they would have, but everyone has faults even the best.

I just recently read Dean Koontz's book The Watchers. I absolutley loved the book. It made me cry. It made me laugh. It made me fall in love with the dog. Yet throughout my reading I noticed that he uses summary alot to tell his story. He doesn't give as much action to move the story along, yet still I loved it. He also used much adjectives in his descripitons that kind of made me wince. Knowing the rules about using strong verbs instead of weak and pointless adjectives. But still in all I loved it. Does that make me like others. others who read without noticing bad writing, but still loving the book despite it's fall outs? Not that I'm anywhere near being a professional at all of this but now that I know what makes writing bad as before I didn't I just wonder about these things. In Stephen King's book that I'm reading now the writing is amazing, but the story line is not as intresting as say Koontz's book was for me.

So in all To each their own.!!
 
Yes motokid you've taken this posting the wrong way. These as I've stated before or rhetorical questions. Just things I've been wondering about. I don't want opinions on how to be sucessful. I enjoy writing, but I don't think I'll ever make it in writing. I still have a sucessful life. I have a career and I pay my bills and I don't do that bad for myself. Writing and being sucessful in it is just my pipe dream. I'm not really looking for ways to make it out there in writing. I simply, as stated in the previous post I just written, as I was reading a book that I found poorly written, I wondered why I loved it so much. I realized that it was the story not the writing. So I got to thinking about these things and decided to ask everyone their opinions.

Trust me I'm not asking how to be sucessful. I already know the answer to that question.
 
I once read a commentary by a classic science fiction writer that listed several reasons "why their bad writing gets published, but your bad writing doesn't." I wish someone would help me find it again, because I can only remember the last one: "Your bad writing is worse than you think."
 
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