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Fanfic - homage or rip-off?

D

daveb75

New Member
Worms, can of, for the opening... :)

Anyway, there seems to be a good spread here of authors, aspiring authors, readers and - well, all right, maybe not aspiring readers. I'm sure we've all read at least one book... anyway, how do people here feel about fan fiction - ie stories (or whatever) written by fans set in the world of, or using plots, characters, structure or whatever taken from an existing work? These things have, unsurprisingly, become very popular since the advent of the internet.

I'm not talking about the legal aspects - as far as I can tell, writing a fanfic of a copyright work without the copyright holder's permission is illegal in the UK under the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988, plain and simple. But I'm only prepared to hear that response from anyone who's never, ever, ever taped a CD to listen to in the car, or ridden their bike on the pavement! ;) What interests me more is whether you feel it's morally right or wrong to do such things.

For the record, my own position is as follows: I've never published any fanfic, though to be honest lack of talent for fiction writing has more to do with that than anything else, but I have read and enjoyed a fair amount, and think it would be very sad if it disappeared. The vast majority of the stuff, it seems to me, can only serve to increase interest in the author, and therefore their sales.

Rather oddly, I have, in a very small way, been on the other end of things, when I wrote a (not very good!) poem for a small local magazine many years ago. Someone (I can't even remember their name at this distance!) did a short story based on the poem and sent it to said magazine, where it was published. This wasn't the sort of mag that could afford to pay anything, and the other author had acknowledged me as his source, so I had no objection at all. Actually, I was rather flattered. I really cannot see any reason for people to complain about genuine fans doing these things out of love, crediting the original author and never making a penny themselves.

Authors' own attitudes seem to vary quite a lot. At one extreme we have Anne Rice, who says on her website "I do not allow fan fiction", and goes on to say that she is terribly upset by the mere thought of anyone else using her characters. (Which doesn't seem to go down all that well with her fans, judging by a quick Google.) But JK Rowling has said on more than one occasion that she's read some of the Harry Potter fanfic and is "flattered" at the attention.

One odd thing I found in Googling about on this was that every time someone supported fanfic in a discussion, they'd get a reply along the lines of "give me an example of a published author who's said that they tolerate fanfic". For some reason, no-one gave the obvious one: Terry Pratchett, who has stated several times that he doesn't mind, so long as he can easily avoid it (to avoid rows about who's nicking whose ideas). Actually, the most succinct quote I found from him was three words: "What the hell!".

Right, flameproof overalls are on - off you go! :D

Cheers,
David.
 
How does that saying go about imitation being the highest form of flattery? I suppose that it could be flattering to some authors but it would probably irritate some others...depends on the author and his legal budget and his tolerance level for that sort of thing.

Probably all of us have been inspired by an authors work and wished that they would have done something different with a certain character or piece of the plot or developed some other aspect of the story a little more. I can even see perhaps writing it down as an exercise just to see where the imagination may lead, perhaps to other ideas that are in no way related to what you originally read. But I think the line should be drawn at publishing said exercise.

However, many authors feel no compunctions about raiding classic or not so classic literature for ideas or even plots and storylines and at most admitting that perhaps that they were influenced by that writer. Whats the difference between an updated Romeo and Juliet and fanfic? (Other than the fact that Shakespere, his lawyers and anyone related to his lawyers have been dead for a jillion years.) Is it a legal issue or just a matter or personal preference?

There you go, Dave, worms all over the place. Next thing you know you'll move to Texas.
 
I've only come across works that have been licensed by the original author. EG the Star Wars novels, which continue the story for years behyond the films have been licensed by George Lucas, and the Bond novels which I assume have been licensed by the Flemming estate. I enjoy those, as long as the continuity is kept.

Never read any "underground" fan fiction. Is it just on the internet? Any sites that have examples we could look at?

Darren.
 
Reason for edit: inserting extra bit just before "Cheers, David". :)

Originally posted by (-)Ions
Here's a great resource for all those who enjoy fan fiction:

http://www.fanfiction.net

There's all types and sizes available :p.

(-)Ions
Click to expand...

Well, there's a coincidence, (-)Ions - that was the site that inspired me to make the original post in this discussion! I read the Watership Down section and a couple of others quite regularly, and although a good proportion is, frankly, dross, there are a few that I enjoyed very much - the two WD ones that spring to mind right now are Chronicles of a Rah (40,000+ words!) and General Hrair, though you'll have to be a fairly devoted fan (eg me!) to make much sense of them.

Darren: I don't really know much about the history of fanfic, as I'm not involved in the stuff except as a reader, and then only of a couple of limited categories. But I understand that it's only been significant in the last couple of decades, and has only become a really big thing since the advent of the net (for fairly obvious reasons). I do agree with you about continuity - there's nothing worse than having an otherwise good fanfic story ruined because the author hasn't read the original books properly - incorrect geography, for example.

Prolixic: Texas? :confused:

Anyhow, the law in the EU, including the UK, is that copyright on a literary work expires at the end of the year 70 years from the death of the author - for example Kipling, who died in 1936, is out of copyright from 1st Jan 2007. So I think people are fairly safe with Shakespeare... ;) (There's a specific exception in the Act for Peter Pan, because its royalties go to Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital.)

You say "but I think the line should be drawn at publishing said exercise". Hmmm. I don't think it's so clear-cut, in that I would ask what "publishing" meant. Let's look at a hypothetical example - say I'd written some reasonably successful books about a character called Splodge the Gecko. (I hope no-one's really done so - if so, apologies!) If anyone else tried to make money out of them, or - worse - tried to make out that Splodge was their idea, I'd be incandescent, and - subject to exactly how well the books had done! - I'd also be down the solicitor's office pronto.

But if someone wrote a fanfic story called, say, Splodge goes to Outer Mongolia, and stuck it up on their website, then provided they made if crystal-clear that it was my creation, and provided they made not a penny out of it, and provided no-one else did either (so no posting it on subscription-based sites, for example), and provided they didn't go shoving it in my face... then I really don't see why I should object, particularly as 98% of fanfic authors I've come across love and respect the originals, and exhort people to buy them to an almost embarrassing degree! (Again, it's only fair to point out my limited experience - I haven't a clue what happens with Star Wars or Harry Potter fanfic, for example.)

As I mentioned briefly in my earlier post, this seems to be pretty much Terry Pratchett's stance - he's unusual, of course, in that he still converses direct with his fans on Usenet. Fan stuff doesn't seem to have done his sales figures any harm! ;)

Actually, I've found the direct quote of what TP said on alt.fan.pratchett in 1998 (typos left in!):

"Even DW fanfic is okay, provided its make clear that it's not by me, isn't sold, and isn't put somewhere where I can't avoid it. This is fannishness. Have fun."

Cheers,
David.

(PS: If anyone would like to create a fanfic based on this post, I hereby authorise them so to do, Splodge and all... :D)
 
Dave, Texans are noted for their ability to open cans and cans of worms and come out of the situation generally worm-free if you see my meaning. Sorry, it was a midwestern U.S. generalization.

For the moment lets assume that publishing means writing something and hanging your name on it. If you publish something under this definition and its too much like someone else's work--original or not--you leave yourself open to copyright infringement and accusations of plagiarism and who knows what all else a creative lawyer could come up with and none of it would be good for your future career as writer. Nothing is really clear-cut from a legal aspect as far as lawyers and courts go--its pretty much whatever they can get away with. As far as my comment about not publishing--using the same definition--a piece that was based on someone elses work it was merely my own feeling about an imaginative exercise that I might undertake to see where it led. I would be hesitant to publish it if it were too much like the original work because I am quite fond of original thinking, perhaps overly so, and am not fond of lawsuits, spending time in court, or paying back monies derived from said published work.
Personally I don't think I'd write fan-fic and call it such and hang it out on a web-site or anywhere else for that matter even if the author was known for his tolerance in that area. It'd be too risky an undertaking. (Besides, it smacks of copying off of trying to copy off of your buddy's test in high-school.)

That said, even if someone wrote An Ode to Splodge, concerto for cannons and tubas and hung it on the Splodge fanfic website--www.splodgeluv.com--they'd still be getting notoriety from your characters and your ideas. Yeah, intellectual property is a tricky area of the law, but not that tricky--especially if they got a writing or recording deal out of it or some other personal gain.

Perhaps its too cynical an approach, I don't know, but I've seen courts do some weird stuff. Hey, look at what they did to tobacco companies. A person chooses to smoke himself to death and its the tobacco companies fault. Go figure. (Uh-oh, is that another can of worms? No, I'm NOT from Texas!)
 
I was in the process, the other day of, of writing a lengthy reply on the thread when I was timed out and lost it!

So frustrated, I gave up.

The short version is this: I believe fanfic is akin to leeching. . . even if the author has given his/her approval. Riding on the coat tails of someone else's success and creativity . . . leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
 
leeching

If you feel fan fiction is leeching upon someone else's success and creativity, how about feature films based on novels or plays?
 
I agree with Dawn, HB, but aren't feature films usually licensed? The author, if he's got anything on the ball at all, probably took a hefty check to the bank way before it hit the theater. Can't really call that leeching. On the other hand fanfic appears to be merely tolerated.
 
It happened again. I had this great response typed up and I got timed out. What am I doing wrong, Darren?

It's an interesting question, especially since my Masters Degree is in Communications (TV, Film, Drama). Films that are based on books are interpretations, therefore not the same animal as fanfic. I do believe, however, that sometimes the term "based on" is used far too liberally. Sometimes the changes that are made to bring the story to the big screen completely alter the tone, plot, and meaning of the book. This can be damaging, since most the audience won't know the original work and assume the film IS the book. Ignorance is a terrible thing. Especially if you're basing your opinion of the author and his/her works on a film "based on" his/her book. Is the film industry rewriting history(literature)? Fanfic can have the same effect.

I could go on, but I'd probably get timed out again.

:D
 
Reason for edit: typos!

Oh, I thought this thread had died! Better reply to you lot, then:

Prolixic: cheers for the translation of the American! ;) You're quite right about the legal stuff (though I don't think English law has a concept called "notoriety") - I said way back in my first post that I reckoned the Copyright Designs and Patents Act covered the stuff over here in the UK. Incidentally, Terry Pratchett is not merely "known for his tolerance in the matter"; he has explicitly stated "fanfic is OK" in a public forum. To change that, he'd have to state explicitly that "fanfic is no longer OK" (which he hasn't), and English law does not allow retrospective alteration of contracts, so existing fanfic authors would be safe in any case.

Dawn: I'm surprised that you think the same way regardless of the author's feelings - I think that particular bit of info is very important indeed. (In any case, there's nothing to stop anyone doing a fanfic of Dickens or Austen, regardless of how they might have felt about it.) And in general I think that a fanfic skilfully evoking the author's style is better - including in terms of sales for them - than, for example, a parody (which, of course, is legal!).

Everyone: Seems I'm in a minority here, and I suppose that as I've never written the stuff myself (and won't, mostly because I'm no good at it, but - yes - partly because I don't want to get sued!), I'm not in a strong position to defend it, but I still believe that there is a significant moral difference between fanfic and commercial exploitation, and I intend to continue to read it. Remember, it has happened to me (though, as I said, on a very small scale), so I do know what it's like, and frankly I don't think it's worth making too much of a fuss about. I think Mr Pratchett has it right.

I'm starting to go round in circles now, so think I'll leave it there.

Cheers,
David.
 
I feel very strongly about "The Truth". Does that make sense? I also feel for any artist that spent time and effort creating any piece of work. I'm not a purist, however. Curiosity will sometimes win out.

Glad to see that we have different opinions. Otherwise we'd be spending allot of space agreeing with each other.
 
Reason for edit: adding silly PS

Of course. Your position is one I don't have any trouble in understanding, and I'd suspect that it's in a fairly hefty majority. As you say, though, the world would be a pretty poor place if we all agreed!

Cheers,
David (who is looking forward to his annual one-hour time machine! :D)

PS: Now I come to think of it, "The Truth" is the title of a Terry Pratchett book. So a fanfic based on "The Truth" is OK! :D
 
i think the last time i wrote a fanfic was when i was 11. that should say something. i guess i can understand why its appealing to a certain point, but its just not the same. you can take the characters and some of their traits, but you just cannot mimick the origninal writer the same way. it is "ripping" the writer off to the certain point since the writer created their characters and locations..
 
Having never written on read fanfic, my opinion may be a little uninformed, but I'd say it was usually ok.
As long as it was actually fanfiction - fans of a work expanding on it, surely by definition it is a homage and not a rip off?
I understand where you're coming from when you say someone had to go to the trouble to craft that universe, world and characters and someone just using it for their own devices is unfair, but they aren't doing it to make a profit or to spite the author, it's to show their affection for the work. I don't see it as being much different to drawing a picture of your favourite character from a book.
I guess though if, for a reason I'm not completely clear on, the author requests you don't do it though, it'd be respectful that you didn't.
My two cents.
 
Oh I'm all for fanfic.

I have an account at fanfiction.net under the same name as I use here. Haven't written much, but I have many stories listed as my favs - they are usually the ones I'm currently following the progress of, and a precious few I really loved and have re-read some times.

As long as the fanfic-writers are clear about the fact that they're writing fanfics and not original stuff I have no griefs about it.

Also, one thing is book fanfics, but what about game fanfics? I have one on my list that's set in the Neverwinter Nights game. Behind that game are hundreds of people and who exactly can we credit for plot? Characters? setting?

The setting is easy to answer in the case of NWN - that's Ed Greenwood who's the primus motor behind the entire Forgotten Realms setting. But the characters? The main character is a player character - when I play the game that character is mine and mine alone because I made them and I role-played them. How do you handle rights there?

So instead of having to delve into all these details I merely say okay to fanfics, I enjoy reading them, I enjoy writing them, no one's making money off of fanfics, except perhaps the authors of the orginal stories, whose sales may increase a bit.

Someone else mentioned J.K. Rowling in conection with this subject. I remember her saying in an online interview that she has read some fanfics, and she really couldn't understand how so many people could be so fascinated by Severus Snape, he's such a mean and nasty man. I think this is a wonderful example of how the author and her audience enters a 'dialogue' about the characters in the story. She doesn't condemn those writers, but rather expresses wonder at how differently they view her characters.
 
I think fanfic is fine as long as you dont try to make money from it. If you want to publish fanfic and try to make money from it, you should get permission to do so from the original author.
 
I happen to read a fair amount of fanfic and agree that as long as a disclaimer is added and the reader made aware that they have no affiliation with the author of the book whose characters they are using then that is fine.

I can see why an author may be slightly upset, but don't hold with this myself. However one fanfic story I read prominantly sticks in my mind. It was novel length and was written whilst fans were waiting for a new book in that series to be published. When the official book came out, many disliked the storyline and felt that the fanfic writer had actually written a far better novel and one that was more in keeping with the traits and personalities of the characters.
 
Fanfics rule! :p

I can't see why some authors can have so much against fanfics. Do they want to forbid people discussing their books as well? Because that is basically what fanfiction is: Discussing how the story might continue and discussing how characters might react in a given situation - the fanfics are merely the grandiose examples to support the arguments :p

What we do here on this forum concerns discussing books. Go to the Harry Potter forum and you'll see just how many people have some idea/clue/guess as to what might happen next - this too is a very lowly, simply form of fanfic, people already have those ideas in their heads, and here they share those ideas and discuss them. The fanfiction writers have simply made their guesses very very detailed and have decided to share them with others in novel/short story form.

I have only read few Anne Rice books, but I really can't see why she would dislike fanfics so much. If it's the idea that others are playing around with her characters... well, I suggest someone be prepared for her breakdown when they tell her that her readers play around with her characters all the time in their heads, and that fanfics are merely a small part the true amounts of 'playing around' that goes on - oh! The horror! The mortification!

I think Anne McCaffrey has prohibited fanfics in her novels as well - I seem to recall thinking amusedly that it must have something to do with the name Anne, when fanfiction.net took down all the Pern fanfics and announced why they did so. It's some years now so it may have changed - I never bothered to check.
 
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