School shootings

[novella]

Do you think you could recognize the signs in a person who might get a gun and shoot up a school or a public place?

I ask this because a couple of weeks ago a guy did this shooting thing in a mall about 35 miles from my house. He didn't kill anyone and he didn't shoot himself. He walked through the mall in the middle of the day letting off fire from an automatic weapon, shooting two people, but not killing them.

Apparently his room was full of clippings about Columbine, he was diagnosed as depressed, he'd bought an automatic weapon at a gun show, and he'd told his friends he was going to do this. His family knew all this stuff, and after he shot the mall up, they said, "Oh, well, we knew he needed help but we didn't know he would do this."

What? What would you think if your kid had a room full of Columbine clippings and had just bought an automatic weapon? Also he was building bombs with two of his friends, just for fun. They were planning to blow them up at school. The friends were charged by the police.

The guy himself now says he felt suicidal. Fine, but why go to the mall then? Jump off the goddamn bridge.

Now there's been another school shooting, with a lot of dead and injured.

What is the thinking behind killing a bunch of other people? There seems to be a need for attention/ revenge / a statement about how deeply you hate everyone / desperation / self-hatred.

This is sometimes called "going postal' and also seems to be directed at institutions, in that the people who do it don't lie in wait for those they hate, they go into the institution they hate and kill whoever is there.

Any insight into this?

 

[Sell Sword]

My family and I have lived in my house now for 3 and a half years. I have a next door neighbor who lived there when we moved in. I said "Hi" to him for about the first week after moving in. He never once said "Hi" back or acknowledged my presence so I just stopped trying. He lives alone, rarely has guests and I would consider him to be somewhat creepy.

I guess what I'm getting at is that this guy is so isolated from society, who would know his mental state? I personally would have no problem believing that this guy is capable of violent crime. But I chalk that up to me not being isolated and being aware of and concerned with my surroundings.

My perspective is that Americans are generally so self-absorbed and self-obsessed that they aren't paying attention to things like warning signs of potentially psychotic individuals. The sick thing is that many parents of disturbed kids are guilty of being "tuned out" to emotional state of their kids.
I know that my parents were constantly on my case and concerned with my teenage partying ways. Of course at the time it I resented it, but now I look back and am glad. As a parent myself I am heavily involved with my kids lives, they come first in our Family and my wife and I make whatever sacrifices to our wants and desires.

 

[lies]

Isn't that a bit paranoid though? Being a recluse is hardly the same as being violent. I should think one works very well without the other.

I only know one "creepy" guy, and I think his creepiness is mostly about getting people's attention.

 

[novella]

From what I've read, the people who do these "social" murders are not psychotic. Lots of times they are depressed and unpopular and viewed as "weird" by their peers, but they are sane. They plan these acts over long periods of time and leave plenty of hints around that they will commit these murders.

It's not like, say, some psychotic guy who pushes a stranger in front of an oncoming train.

Getting attention from those who've rejected them seems to be a major motivation. That's why they don't just shoot themselves, but have a need to terrify a bunch of people. And the perpetrators who survive seem to have an air of self-satisfaction, as if they're saying, "See? I'm dangerous."

 

[Motokid]

I heard on the radio that this kid in the most recent school shooting had a history of depression and was on prescription Prozac. That's what the radio was reporting.

 

[novella]

Moto (or anyone),
If you were a school principal and you wanted to take preventative measures for this kind of thing, what would you do?

I live in an area where everyone owns a gun (including us--a shotgun kept unloaded in a locked gun safe), and most kids go hunting at an early age. So it's a scary prospect to think of a dissatified unhappy kid in my son's school having access to a gun. Of course they're mostly two-round shotguns and muzzle-loaders, not Kalishnikovs.

The kid across the river who shot up the mall bought his automatic weapon at a local gun fair, legally.

 

[Motokid]

Ooffaaa novella. That's a hard one. I am all for the right to bear arms if your a law abidding citizen. I have no problems with month long background checks or whatever it takes to learn about a persons history before they are allowed to purchase a gun. I think these gun shows have to go. I also question the need for "fully automatic" weapons of any kind.

If I was a principle I would want every student to have to pass through a metal detector when entering the school. I would want the security guards to have easy, and quick access to a weapon. Maybe the guard should carry a weapon at all times. (The guards in this particular school were un-armed) Random locker searches do not bother me either. If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide. I am also in favor of mandatory school uniforms. Express yourself through your clothing on your own time. Go to school to learn.

Now I know people are going to cry that that's not too far removed from a prison, but I'm not sure what's the best way to prevent such crimes from continuing. Kids are in need of tougher, stricter regulations.

That's my belief at this time. Feel free to change my opinion if you can.

 

[novella]

We don't have security guards at all, let alone a metal detector.

I was thinking more along the lines of asking the teachers which kids they think are "troubled" and having a personal chat with each of them to get my own opinion, but that might appear to unfairly single some kids out.

My son had one principal who ate lunch in his office with a different kid every day, to get to know them. That was a really nice thing to do.

It's the bullied, not the bullies, who wind up committing these acts. Which is one of the reasons it's hard to see it coming. The kids are usually very quiet and isolated, with just a friend or two who know what they're up to.

 

[Ashlea]

Edit: Hmm, rethinking my turn of the conversation here. Don't want to get too political. Let's just say that guns are a tricky subject on a lot of levels.

 

[novella]

Don't know what you were going to say, Ashlea, and I won't guess.

I will just say that I think guns are a part of the problem, but not the root cause. They make it easier, especially automatic weapons. But I think that a kid hellbent on doing damage will find a way. I guess there is an argument to be made for at least making it a little more difficult to go into a building and kill a load of people.

I was talking with my son about this and what he would come up with as preventative measures at school. I was sort of surprised at how law-and-order he was, pretty harsh compared with me. Also, he seemed to think that the adults in loco parentis were normally familiar enough with each kid to spot a problem, which is some comfort. I hope they would have the forethought to follow through if they sense a crisis developing.

 

[Zolipara]

If I was a principle I would want every student to have to pass through a metal detector when entering the school. I would want the security guards to have easy, and quick access to a weapon. Maybe the guard should carry a weapon at all times. (The guards in this particular school were un-armed) Random locker searches do not bother me either. If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide. I am also in favor of mandatory school uniforms. Express yourself through your clothing on your own time. Go to school to learn.

In my opinion you have lost the fight if you have to have a system like this on every school.

 

[novella]

Yes, Zoli, I agree. Once you've created an Administration vs. Kids environment, it's very hard to go back. And what is the lesson you're teaching when the school is so much like a jail, with wardens and contraband on everyone's mind?

I'm much more for trying to identify and head off the kids who are most likely to make such an attack, through personal contact and conversation. Every school as a guidance counselor, most schools have a professional psychologist available. We're paying them to do exactly this, but I guess the teachers ought to be aware that they're the first line of defense, in helping to identify problems.

 

[Zolipara]

Yep motos description sounds more like a jail or a warzone. Seriously armed guards?

If i had to go through security checks every morning and have armed guards check my locker all the time i doubt i would concentrate much on learning anything.

I'm happy i live in a country where this isnt a issue.

 

[«FickleMinded»]

--reading all this shooting news were freaking me out, makes me think sometimes to send my son to a military high school in the near future.

 

[Motokid]

I admit my thoughts were quite extreme on this subject, and they are just thoughts. I think the idea of trying to spot troubled kids and head them off at the pass is a wonderful idea, but probably very difficult to make into reality. How many "bookworms" might be singled out as possible problem students? Always sitting alone, reading, no friends, ear plugs and dark clothes....you're talking about stereotyping and profiling based on appearance.

I think when you're talking about public schools, some with well over 2000-3000 kids you're never going to be able to keep an eye on all of them.

The "profiling" aspect of what novella suggests has it's own problems and does not change the family situation at home, or the torment some kids receive outside the school walls.

My reaction may have been a kneejerk reaction to the events that just happened, but I did ask that people offer other solutions to help change my mind. Currently there's really nothing in place that can stop this from happening again.

 

[novella]

I admit my thoughts were quite extreme on this subject, and they are just thoughts. I think the idea of trying to spot troubled kids and head them off at the pass is a wonderful idea, but probably very difficult to make into reality. How many "bookworms" might be singled out as possible problem students? Always sitting alone, reading, no friends, ear plugs and dark clothes....you're talking about stereotyping and profiling based on appearance.

.

The ideal would be not to judge on appearances but to have at least one adult conversant with every student. That's what the idea of homerooms is supposed to be.

I think a major part of the problem is not that teachers are too busy to get to know the kids or don't have access to each kid, but that teacher are prone to the same social prejudices as everyone else.

They like to talk with the popular, funny, attractive kids. They don't seek out the troubled unpopular kids because they don't find them attractive. It's just human nature.

I'm not sure if it's even part of their job description to screen for that kind of trouble, but it seems like the most effective option.

The latest shooting kid, out in the rez in Minnesota, was known for his fondness for Goth style and Nazi philosophy. This, plus a fascination with Columbine and other shootings, collecting weapons, and professing to avenge yourself on your classmates are sort of like warning signs, huh? Now they say he didn't act alone.

I bet there are a whole bunch of kids saying, "I knew he was up to something like that."

 

[Motokid]

"was known for his fondness for Goth style and Nazi philosophy. This, plus a fascination with Columbine and other shootings, collecting weapons, and professing to avenge yourself on your classmates"


Certainly sounds like stuff that should have waved huge warning flags for the boys parents too...doesn't it?

And if he was on prozac or other medication for mental reasons, and having some kind of fascination with nazi/Columbine type stuff how many warning signs are needed for adults to catch on?

 

[novella]

"was known for his fondness for Goth style and Nazi philosophy. This, plus a fascination with Columbine and other shootings, collecting weapons, and professing to avenge yourself on your classmates"


Certainly sounds like stuff that should have waved huge warning flags for the boys parents too...doesn't it?

That particular kid was living with his grandparents, who he also killed. Who knows where his parents were.

The kid up here who shot up the mall, what his dad said was that the family knew he needed help but they couldn't afford it. That kid was out of school, 19 years old, and deadending.

Okay, maybe you don't want to turn your kid over to the police or tell the FBI that your son bought a weapon and thinks Columbine was cool. Don't know what they could have done. The parents of a 19 year old don't have the same input and control as those of a 14 year old. Sounds like they were years too late.

 

[gooky]

I heard he read the book Think Woodchuck before the killings. I read the book. It is really great but has little to do with killing people, just about angst in High School. I would recommend anyone interested to check it out.

 

[Kookamoor]

I heard he read the book Think Woodchuck before the killings. I read the book. It is really great but has little to do with killing people, just about angst in High School. I would recommend anyone interested to check it out.

gooky, I've seen you post about this book in a number of places on the forum yesterday and today - including in fantasy recommendations where it doesn't seem to fit! I googled it and I can find no reference to the book and the tragic shootings.

I'm not being rude, but can you back up where you got your information? It just seems a little odd that yesterday you heard about it, and less than 24 hours later you have a copy - which you have ordered on Amazon as well as purchasing at a second hand bookstore - and have read it.