Suicidal Creativity

[hay82]

Reading about different authors who chose to commit suicide made me think about if there is a possible connection between creativiti and depression. I found this:

Creativity, Depression and Suicide Prevention

For several centuries, stories of famous painters, writers and musicians who were depressed and took their lives made people wonder. Only in the last 25 years has scientific evidence demonstrated that creative people are more vulnerable to depression and suicide, regardless of whether or not they become famous. More research is needed to determine which:

* Patients suffering from depressive or manic depressive disorders are most vulnerable to suicide
* Treatments will control the disorder without interfering with the artists’ ability to create.

Throughout history artists, writers and musicians have seemed to suffer disproportionately from mood disorders. Only recently has research concluded that a high percentage of artists — both past and contemporary — have, in fact, suffered from affective illness, particularly manic-depressive disorder.

Treatment of major depressive illness in artists has presented unique problems; partly because of a concern that creativity and the disorder are so intertwined that treatment might destroy the artists’ unique talent.

By supporting study of current approaches to treatment, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention hopes to encourage the development of new options for today’s creators, options unfortunately unavailable for yesterday’s greats.

Cases in Particular Arts

* The Literary Arts
Recent studies have shown that poets and writers are four times more likely than others to suffer from affective disorders, particularly manic depression. Dickinson, Eliot, and Poe are among the many poets who suffered from an affective illness. Writers such as Balzac, Conrad, Dickens, Emerson, Faulkner, Fitzgerald, Ibsen, Melville, and Tolstoy also suffered from the illness. In many cases, the writer's depression led to suicide: John Berryman, Sylvia Plath, Anne Sexton, Ernest Hemingway and Virginia Woolf.

I also seem to remember reading something that depression could make some people more creative. What do you think, do you become depressed if you are creative, creative because you are depressed or is it just rubbish?

 

[Kookamoor]

I have three thoughts on this matter:

1. Do you think there's a correlation between people being creative and people being financially stressed? I'm sure financial difficulties are near the top of the list of things which can lead to depression.

2. From this study there could also be a reasoning that right brain dominant people have a higher incidence of depression. That being said, I know a lot of very mathsy/computery people who are depressed... and they are left brain dominant, I believe.

3. Thirdly, perhaps these people were mentally disturbed to begin with, and found that their only means of expressing their pain was through creative pursuits. ie: the creativity was the result of their mental illness, rather than vice versa.

Just my musings.

 

[novella]

This is a new book, Against Depression, by the author of Listening to Prozac, that seeks to disromanticize the spurious link between depression and creativity or between depression and anything positive.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0670034053/qid=1116478353/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-4382597-6463101?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It's worth noting that more 'undepressed' (i.e., normal) people are creative than depressed people. I think throughout modern history The Melancholia has been viewed as a Romantic 'condition', when in fact it's often traced directly to events in an individual's life that are difficult to psychologically absorb.

hay, I don't think depression makes anyone 'more creative', but it might make them more inclined to express themselves, out of a sense of desperation and isolation. That is neither a symptom of the disease nor a solution. I think that this misconceived notion that depressed peoples' expression is more 'meaningful' is a societal symptom of repression.

Excuse my psych-speak.

 

[hay82]

hay, I don't think depression makes anyone 'more creative', but it might make them more inclined to express themselves, out of a sense of desperation and isolation.

I agree, I just wondered since I heard some here mention a link between the two once, and I couldn't really see why that should be the case. Besides that I don't see how anyone can see depression as being anything romantic.
Perhaps the "link" comes from the fact that hearing about a writer who has commited suicide is more interesting than the one who died peacefully in bed.

 

[Wolhay]

I think that depression makes people less creative if anything. It doesn't seem like a very productive mood.

 

[Sar]

Last month's Focus Magazine had an article about the following:

Tortured genius
Some of the most brilliant minds in history have belonged to men and women with tormented private lives and a variety of mental illnesses. Focus asks if genius and a troubled life go hand in hand

So maybe rather then it being creative people being more disposed towards troubled minds, it's those with astounding intellects. After all, intelligence isn't just about academic abilities.

 

[novella]

There's a chicken/egg problem here that makes it hard to dissect: if as a society we associate genius or creativity with a troubled mind or with depression, then those who either ARE or POSE as creative geniuses allow themselves a lot more behavior that fits that model. And Western society has made this association for centuries, at least since the Renaissance.

 

[Sar]

I see what you mean, sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Depression & mental health problems are something that your average person chooses not to wear on their sleeve, mainly due to the stigma still attached, however when you are considered to have a great talent (whether it be art, science or anything else) it is deemed more of an eccentricity & therefore slightly more accepted by society. Everyday people who suffer from similar problems will hide the fact & therefore we are merely more aware of the high profile ones suffering. (Mental health problems such as depression is something 1 in 4 people are supposed to suffer from at some point in their lives)

I would argue that having brilliance may just mean a higher level of conciousness & alertness to everything around you & therefore maybe it's just easier to be overloaded & overwhelmed by the world.

 

[Slacker]

Ugh, I'm never sure if I am going to be able to word something like this right!

First, I by no means think that depressed or suicidal persons are more creative than anyone else.

But what I do think is that to be a creative person and put your work out there is so immensely personal, there are a lot of fears of judgement involved.

So I guess what I'm saying is, if you're the type of person whose already got the mindset to where you could take yourself out, maybe that's freeing for some people's creativity? Becuase I think that among average folks, there are lots of people who get depressed and may feel like they want to die, but they're just of a mindset that suicide is never an option for them, wanting to die doesn't equal having the will to take yourself out. Conversely, I think some people never have that mental "block" against it as a choice, may think about it for years as a possibility. . . .

So if you're already willing to kill your own self, what do you have to lose in indulging your most wild, brilliant, creative impulses?

And maybe it's also a matter of legacy. We all know we're going to die intellectually, but for someone who honestly considers suicide, that knowledge has to be much more crystallized or maybe, the implications of it are. Perhaps some of them are more driven to put thier work out there because they have thier end game mapped out so clearly for themselves and need to feel like they have accomplished X amount of acclaim or fame before that point.

Again, it's not that I think the depressed or suicidal are more creative, I don't. But I think maybe that's why we can see so many brilliant artists and such who have killed themselves. It's just a thought.

 

[novella]

Slacker,

I think your post is just the type of idea that promotes the link between creativity and depression. In fact, the rate of suicide among artists and writers is the same as that for the general population.

I think your idea that showing your work to the public and taking the hit of judgment is somehow masochistic (my word--perhaps you meant something different?) is funny. Publishing my work and hearing what people think about it has sometimes been very rewarding, enlightening, sometimes hard to hear, sometimes it tells me something I didn't know about myself.

I think, as with anything, good writing doesn't spring fully formed from an unschooled, unpracticed mind. It's a craft that needs practice. A woodcarver's first try is going to be crude and rough; so it is with a writer's early work. If the first work you share with people gets critically hit, it doesn't mean you will always be a bad writer. It may just mean you need to hone your craft. To see it as self-flaggelation is pretty negative.

 

[lovermuffin]

Men have called me mad," wrote Edgar Allan Poe, "but the question is not yet settled, whether madness is or is not the loftiest intelligence- whether much that is glorious- whether all that is profound- does not spring from disease of thought- from moods of mind exalted at the expense of the general intellect."

I believe that it is the cyclic rhythm of the depressive disorders that allows a person to provide insight into the world, from the shifting perspectives that they experience.

Can anyone recognize how their own creativity emerges? I find that I fit into this explanation quite well...

 

[lovermuffin]

I also think that Slacker should look at all the scientific evidence and research that has proven and explained this link. It's not just a coincidence.

 

[novella]

I also think that Slacker should look at all the scientific evidence and research that has proven and explained this link. It's not just a coincidence.

What scientific evidence and research proves this link? I don't think there is any. That's what the book I linked to, "Against Depression" is about: the lack of a verified link. It's a social myth.

 

[ecks]

I think it is precisely because people with suicidal tendencies are not normal, that they have famous works of art. They have something that stand out from the crowd, something that grabs your attention. Not only that, but people with suicidal tendencies do not focus on the realistic world because they see it as worthless, and focus more on the imaginery, which correlates to art.

 

[ctadams]

Jmho

A theory --

I think that creativity, by its nature, means being outside of the norm. There's a heavy social price for straying too far from acceptable behavior within a society. Which frequently means that creative people have to either (1) choose to "behave" which denies a part of themselves and leads to depression (which can only partly be alleviated through their art); or (2) Choose to be true to their own nature, which leads to social consequences that can cause depression (which can only partly be alleviated through their art). How successful they are at channeling the negative emotional baggage into their work can determine both the brilliance of their work but also whether or not they give in to suicidal impulses.

 

[novella]

I think it is precisely because people with suicidal tendencies are not normal, that they have famous works of art. They have something that stand out from the crowd, something that grabs your attention. Not only that, but people with suicidal tendencies do not focus on the realistic world because they see it as worthless, and focus more on the imaginery, which correlates to art.

Can you explain this statement? The suicide rate among artists and writers is the same as that for the population at large. What are you referring to?

 

[lovermuffin]

I've been refering to a Scientific American Journal written by Kay Redfield Jamison. Since the 19th century scientists have found correlations between depression and creativity. Nancy Andreasen, Hagop Akiskal, David Evans, Ruth Richards, and Arnold Ludwig are some of the researchers who have been cited in the article, and they've all found correlational data. Some books for further reading: "Touched with fire" Manic-depressive illness and the artistic temperment" "Creative achievement and psychopathology: comparison among professions" and "Creativity and mental illness: prevalence rates in writers and their first-degree relatives".

 

[novella]

While there might be a correlation between manic-depression and artists, the suicide rate among artists and writers is in a close ratio that in the general population. Those most at-risk for suicide are not artists, but are white elderly males with access to a gun. They can be accountants, unemployed, teachers, entrepreneurs, or any profession. There's no indication that being a writer or an artist (and especially not a musician, who have lower likelihood) is related to a propensity toward suicide.

 

[lovermuffin]

I'm not too sure about what you're saying. I suppose our different viewpoints just stem from two different sources. This gets into an area I study a lot in school, about how we base our knowledge claims and what is "truth". The Scientific American journal says that "Increased rates of suicide, depression and manic-depression among artists have been established by many separate studies. These investigations show that artists experience up to 18 times the rate of suicide seen in the general population, eight to 10 times the rate of depression and 10 to 20 times the rate of manic-depression and cyclothymia."

 

[ecks]

I have no idea whether people that create art are more depressed than the general population. What I was referring to is that depressed artist's work gets noticed more, not that they are in a sense more creative.