Tristan & Yseult

[Ashlea]

Been researching the Tristan and Yseult (or Isolde) romance/legend, and read Beroul's version of it. It was evidently very important in the 12th century, which is a period I'm researching, and I'm having some trouble wrapping my mind about it.

For those who are unfamiliar with it, there is a summary here

Some thoughts:

1. How well is it known now? A movie is in post production, and I found lots of artwork even in the modern period. Why is it so influential? There are lots of tragic love stories.

2. In the Beroul version, the author/narrator is very sympathetic toward the lovers, despite the fact that they are very deceitful towards King Mark, who genuinely seems to care for both of them. Why do they get all the sympathy and not the wronged husband/uncle?

3. This story parallels the Arthur-Guinevere-Lancelot story VERY closely. Why do we have two such close legends?

4. The big difference between this and the Guinevere love triangle is the magic potion. Does this excuse the lovers' frequent lies and deceptions? Why are so many of the secondary characters in the story so willing to help the lovers out?

Movie has some interesting casting (look here), but doesn't Rufus Sewell ever get tired of playing the brooding, dark medieval guy?

 

[warm_enema]

1. I would not say it is well know, to the average person off the street. It will be once the movie comes out.

3. If you want, blame Gottfried von Strassburg, he wrote a version of both.
Have you read Mabinogion? That might answer some questions. There is a Welsh poem called, Gododdin, cira 600, that mentions Arthur; that might also be of some help.

 

[lies]

I'd say it's very well known. At least I don't think I know anyone who wouldn't know the main gist of the story.

Maybe both this story and the Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot triangle have the same roots?

(I don't think I've read the Beroul version though.)

 

[Ashlea]

lies, your avatar is mesmerizing.

I'm just having a hard time feeling sympathy for the lovers' as they seem to cause all their own troubles, and I don't see how a "love potion" excuses it. I'm trying to approach it from a medieval mindset, where the potential actions in the story would be much more limited by society expectations, but I'm not doing a very good job.

WE, I will check out those other ones, thanks!

 

[lies]

lies, your avatar is mesmerizing.

I'm just having a hard time feeling sympathy for the lovers' as they seem to cause all their own troubles, and I don't see how a "love potion" excuses it. I'm trying to approach it from a medieval mindset, where the potential actions in the story would be much more limited by society expectations, but I'm not doing a very good job.

Thanks, Ashlea. I stole it off of someone though. :

Maybe the whole point of the story is not that you sympathize, but that it's just a tragic tale. We don't sympathize with Helena and Paris either, and that's also a love story. Or maybe I have little to no patience with the characters, LOL.

 

[member 737]

Been researching the Tristan and Yseult (or Isolde) romance/legend, and read Beroul's version of it.

I've got a French version, by J. Bedier. It's written on the cover that he collected few different versions of the story and composed them together.

1. How well is it known now? A movie is in post production, and I found lots of artwork even in the modern period. Why is it so influential? There are lots of tragic love stories.

It's extremely well known in Poland - it's an obligatory book in every high school. I suppose it was chosen mostly because it's a perfect example of a medieval romance, and portrays an universal image of a noble knight. (as he should be, of course; because Tristan obviously doesn't live up to the strict expectations). Why other story wasn't chosen? I have no idea. Maybe this one is best maintained?

2. In the Beroul version, the author/narrator is very sympathetic toward the lovers, despite the fact that they are very deceitful towards King Mark, who genuinely seems to care for both of them. Why do they get all the sympathy and not the wronged husband/uncle?

It's similarly described in Bedier's version. Actually, assesment of the characters in the book is incomprehensible for me. King MArk is repeatedly called a "good" man; still when

Spoiler

he finds out about his wife unfaithfullness, he is merciless and cruel, as he sentences her to a long death in pain and humiliation. Personally, I dislike Tristan and Isolde and don't feel any sympathy towards them.

3. This story parallels the Arthur-Guinevere-Lancelot story VERY closely. Why do we have two such close legends?

Both are representative for typical motives in medieval love songs.

4. The big difference between this and the Guinevere love triangle is the magic potion. Does this excuse the lovers' frequent lies and deceptions?

No.

Why are so many of the secondary characters in the story so willing to help the lovers out?

Because they recognise true love

Spoiler

created chemically, what an irony!

or want to keep action going.

 

[novella]

Hi Ashlea,

I think the readers' sympathies easily lie with the lovers because they are helpless in several ways--powerless in their chosen fates, helpless in their love (potion adds to this, denying any willpower), and helpless as the machinations around them conspire to further and further thwart them. Their inability to change course makes them sympathetic, in the classic tragic genre.

One could argue that they were privileged (as were Romeo and Juliet) and therefore not THAT powerless, but in fact nobody wanted to read about poor people who were pathetically hopeless in every way. Privileged and beautiful people who lose control of their fates are far more tragic.

The classic Greek definition of tragedy is the unforeseen sudden reversal of fortune, which is what they suffer.

I guess Mark is also a tragic figure in some versions, though he's not a protagonist. He stands, at best, as the unwitting obstacle to their heart's desire. When he is a *good* man, it is more tragic, IMO, because there are no winners.

The underlying question, I suppose, is why are people drawn to tragedy as entertainment, but that's a big big question.

Novella

 

[Ashlea]

Thank you for the insight, everyone. I'm also exploring the concept of the breaking of fealty making the story additionally scandalous.

I guess falling for the wrong guy is universally tragic, but it's still hard to not castigate people for making bad decisions.

 

[novella]

But is it a bad decision if they've just taken the wrong potion? I think the tragic aspect stems from them not being in control of their fates.

 

[Ashlea]

But is it a bad decision if they've just taken the wrong potion? I think the tragic aspect stems from them not being in control of their fates.

But they made the decision to lie, deceive, etc. The potion controlled their emotions, but not their actions.