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When was JC really born...?

-Carlos-

-Carlos-

New Member
The celebration of the birth of Chirst has been traditionally on the 25th of December. If that was true, how do we know it as a fact? Do we truly know his birthday? The answer is no. The Bible does not indicate the date; neither does other historical documents. So why December 25th? Any thoughts?

Just for the record I am an agnostic.
 
Most Christians understand that December 25 was most likely NOT the actual factual date of Jesus' birth. That was chosed by the Roman Catholics to Christianize a pre-existing Pagan holiday. Anyway, the thought is that most likely it was during the warmer months, as there were shephards with flocks out in the hills..not likely in colder months. http://tinyurl.com/27oqmc
 
abecedarian: Is the Bible that you read (I'm guessing) a NWT? I just want to be discreet. If you are confused about my question, please disregard. =]
 
AquaBlue said:
abecedarian: Is the Bible that you read (I'm guessing) a NWT? I just want to be discreet. If you are confused about my question, please disregard. =]
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I don't read a New World Translation..as I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I usually read an NIV-New International Version or a NLT-New Living Translation. I really prefer the NASB-New American Standard Bible, but we switch over to NIV a few years ago for the kids' sake..and I am wishing now we hadn't... but that really goes back to personal preference.
 
I hope that are still keeping some room for your agnostic friend. ;)

There was a time, in the remote past, that spirituality was my life. But those days have since ended for me.
 
Its based on a old pagan celebration of the turning of the seasons. It signified that we had reached the "middle of winter" and every day after this brought us closer to spring and summer. The daylight lasted longer.

The christians just changed the significance of this celebration.
 
As far as I can tell, the only thing historians agree on is that he was NOT born on the 25th of December in the year 0 (or 1, if you prefer). Heck, the Bible has him being born during the reign of both Herod (who died in 4BC) AND Quirinius (who came to power in 6AD). And assuming that the star of Bethlehem was an actual astronomical phenomenon and not something that could only be seen by three wise men (or invented by later chroniclers), there are no supernovas, comets or anything similar recorded in that year either.

One interesting book on the subject, if not one to believe wholesale, is Lena Einhorn's The Jesus Mystery.

Though to be honest, I don't see why it matters much. Surely the important bit about Jesus is what he said and did in life (and possibly after it, if one is a believer), not the exact date of his birth? If his birthday was that important, surely ONE of the gospel writers would have jotted it down?
 
beer good said:
Though to be honest, I don't see why it matters much. Surely the important bit about Jesus is what he said and did in life (and possibly after it, if one is a believer), not the exact date of his birth? If his birthday was that important, surely ONE of the gospel writers would have jotted it down?
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Exactly. The time of his death and resurrection is detailed down to the hour in Scriptures, but that of his birth is much more vague and general. I don't see the harm in yanking a date off the calendar that suits..and that's what the early Church did in their efforts to make a pagan holiday more palatable to new converts. Of far more concern to me, are the folks who firmly believe that baby Jesus didn't cry, poop, or otherwise act like a regular kid..after all, the song says,"The Little Lord Jesus, No Crying He Makes!":rolleyes: (This is the same crowd that argue til they're blue that Jesus not a Jew.....he was a Christian:eek: )


(Don't get me started..)
 
beer good said:
Though to be honest, I don't see why it matters much. Surely the important bit about Jesus is what he said and did in life (and possibly after it, if one is a believer), not the exact date of his birth? If his birthday was that important, surely ONE of the gospel writers would have jotted it down?
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If that is wrong what else is wrong in the book? Did he say and do what the gospels say or is that something the gospel writers made up later?

I'm not saying one or the other but many people see that as an attack on their religion, and choose to believe every word exactly as it is written. Thats why stupidity such as creationists still are going strong in many places.

Religion chooses to resist rather than adapt to change.
 
Zolipara said:
If that is wrong what else is wrong in the book? Did he say and do what the gospels say or is that something the gospel writers made up later?

I'm not saying one or the other but many people see that as an attack on their religion, and choose to believe every word exactly as it is written.
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Oh, I get that, absolutely. But the point is that AFAIK* the Bible doesn't mention any date for Jesus' birth - that was all fixed centuries later. How can the book be wrong about something which isn't written in it at all?

* And I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong here
 
beer good said:
Oh, I get that, absolutely. But the point is that AFAIK* the Bible doesn't mention any date for Jesus' birth - that was all fixed centuries later. How can the book be wrong about something which isn't written in it at all?

* And I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong here
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Ah sorry. I dont know where that date comes from really, but even if its not actually in the book its a fundamental part of the religion in much the same way as the bible. So the same principles apply.
 
abecedarian said:
I don't see the harm in yanking a date off the calendar that suits..and that's what the early Church did in their efforts to make a pagan holiday more palatable to new converts.
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Plenty of harm in usurping festivals and forcing conversion through violence. Plus we now have to deal with all the idiots who want to put the Christ back in Christmas when he was never there to begin with, and yet are dead set against putting the Eostre back in Easter.
 
Zolipara said:
Ah sorry. I dont know where that date comes from really, but even if its not actually in the book its a fundamental part of the religion in much the same way as the bible. So the same principles apply.
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In essence, you were right earlier. Saturnalia was celebrated in the winter and 25 December was the day of the Sol Invictus feast.

There's no mention in the published gospels of a date for Jesus's birth.

One has to be a tad careful with Wikipedia, but this seems a reasonable explanation of the Christian origins of Christmas (and hence the date).
 
Sybarite said:
In essence, you were right earlier. Saturnalia was celebrated in the winter and 25 December was the day of the Sol Invictus feast.

There's no mention in the published gospels of a date for Jesus's birth.

One has to be a tad careful with Wikipedia, but this seems a reasonable explanation of the Christian origins of Christmas (and hence the date).
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Yes i know, but i meant i was not sure when the date of JC's birth was set. If it came from the bible, some other book or if it was just decided one day by the church. In other words i'm not sure who decided to change the meaning of the winter festival.
 
It seems that the Roman emperor Constantine is credited with picking 25 December after he converted in 313AD following a military victory after being persuaded to paint crosses on his soldiers' shields. He might have opted for 25 December because it was the date when the birth of Mithras was celebrated and not long after celebrations for Saturn (17 December). Giving presents on these days was familiar in Persian and Roman culture.

In 376AD, Pope Leo destroyed the temple of Mithra, but the Mithraic festivity of the birth of the Sun continued, largely because it was a convenient time to be merry in the middle of the winter. It was not till the year 530AD that the church commissioned the monk Dionysius Exiguus to proclaim this popular festivity as the birth of Christ.

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge explains:

"How much the date of the festival depended upon the pagan Brumalia (December 25th) following the Saturnalia (December 17th-24th), and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the 'new sun' ... cannot be accurately determined. The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence ... The pagan festival with it's riot and merrymaking was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and in manner. Christian preachers of the West and the Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity with which Christ's birthday was celebrated, while Christians of Mesopotamia accused their western brethren of idolatry and sun worship for adopting as Christian this pagan festival."

Midwinter was celebrated by many cultures. In Babylon it was dedicated to the Queen of Heaven, in Greece to Dionysos and Adonis, in Rome it was to Saturn (as mentioned above), in England to the Nordic god Balder.

St Augustine apparently said: "we hold this (Christmas) day Holy, not like the pagans because of the Birth of the Sun, but because of the birth of him who made it (Christmas) day Holy, not like the pagans because of the Birth of the Sun, but because of the birth of him who made it", which shows that it was a festival that was dedicated to the birth of the sun that was adopted by the Christians.

Apart from Christmas, Christianity also absorbed many Mithraic myths and legends like immaculate birth, baptism, Eucharist, 12 disciples, birth in a cave/stable, the presence of shepherds at the time of the birth and the resurrection. Like the creation myth, these are not unique to Christianity.
 
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