A cliched genre? Discuss

[magemanda]

Hi all,

Since another, recent, thread bemoaned the lack of decent fantasy chat in this forum, I thought I'd push the boat out and start a topic that might interest you... Please reply

Okay, in my view the fantasy genre as a whole gets a massive slating from critics and readers alike (when I say readers, in that context I mean the people who read other genres and look down on fantasy). Recently there has been an upsurge in people reading fantasy thanks to Rowling and Peter Jackson.

However, a lot of my friends and family mock my reading habits and say that the genre as a whole is cliched. I would like to dispute that since it is a sweeping generalisation. Not all fantasy these days covers the young lad on a quest to find his heritage, going up against ultimate evil. Thanks to many authors out there, we have fantasy that is varied and rich in story and characters. Our favourite authors no longer rely on magicians that live for thousands of years and are always grouchy with a penchant for ale and women.

I would also like to state that I feel the word 'fantasy' does not effectively cover the fact that the books we read are actually: romance; crime; mystery; historical..... I could go on. Despite people's sneers, the genre we read and enjoy is actually an umbrella term for all the genres that they feel are so superior.

Anyway, that was my thought. Please contribute...

And for all those who feel that fantasy is not cliched, read Diana Wynne Jones' 'A Tough Guide to Fantasyland' and realise that it very probably is

Amanda

 

[cajunmama]

I would also like to state that I feel the word 'fantasy' does not effectively cover the fact that the books we read are actually: romance; crime; mystery; historical..... I could go on. Despite people's sneers, the genre we read and enjoy is actually an umbrella term for all the genres that they feel are so superior.

Excellent point Amanda. I personally have read books categorized in other genres that have elements of fantasy in them, time-travel, witchcraft, psychic phenomena. And I have read fantasy books with all that you mentioned, crime, romance, history, etc.
To my thinking, fiction and fantasy are nearly interchangeable. See if you can follow me here. Fiction is made up stuff, right? Fantasy is made up stuff, too, just more of it. They vary by degree of fictionalization.
Say we have two books.
Book 1: Main character: Bob (made up)
Setting: Philadelphia, Earth, year 2000 (not made up)
Villain: Andy (made up)
Love interest: Lisa (made up)
Book 2: Main Character: Raku (made up)
Setting: Intergalactical Warship, year 2496 (made up)
Vllain: Kirlo (Made up)
Love interest: Poi (made up)
Book 1 would be considered fiction. And Book 2 would be considered Fantasy because it is "other-worldly" .See my point?
To me it is all fiction (unless it's non-fiction ). We all have our own tastes. Just as one of your friends might like tall dark guys, you might like blond blue-eyed guys.
It is a shame that Fantasy as a whole does have a cliche'd reputation when there are many great books. It is hard to butt heads against people who stick to stereotypes, generalizations and closed minds.

 

[Wabbit]

I think fantasy fiction is not really very good. Now I have said that, I will tell you that I LOVE fantasy! A contradiction? Let me explaine

For me fantasy is a really wonderful genre. It is the genre of wonder and magic. How any anybody look down on those? I think a lot of people look down on this genre because they actually fear it. When they discard their toys along with their wonder to become an "adult" they want to leave all that behind them. They want to conform. They don't want to hear voice of their childhood.

yes, I love fantasy. I really like magic realism, which is really a kind of fantasy. I like, also, what is called urban or contempory fantasy. Novels written by the likes of that written by Neil Gaiman and Charles De Lint. Fantasy set in the world we know.

But traditional fantasy? No, I don't read it. I used to read it A LOT. It made up 90 percent of my reading. But I come to the point when I have come to the conclusion that it's just not very good. I will list my reasons behind this.

• The trilogy: This is the bane of fantasy! Do we really need to have 3+ books to tell a story? Some of the most beautiful and wonderful stories made my mankind are the shortest. It's just money, money, money.
• The clone wars: traditional fantasy is far to cliche. The books are all pretty much Lord of the rings rip offs. They all follow the same parth. Quest for object of powr. Find object. Save world. If they are not that then they are the so called new wave of fantasy. Such as written by Robin Hobbes and so on. In stead of a lot of LOTR rip offs you have a load of new cliches. All they have done is take out the magic and increase the politics. Excuse me if I don't get too excited.

There are a few fantasy that do not fit into the stated cliches. Single volume novels that do not tread the same ground over and over and over again.

So, I will say that I like fantasy. I do not like "fantasy" novels because they are just so tired. It's not that I look down on the genre, but put simply, I used to read it all the time and just got bored of reading the same novel over and over.

Of course, there is actually nothing wrong with this. If you don't mind reading pretty much the same thing over and over. If you totally love this kind of novel and just want some more of the same... then, of course, that's fine! Good luck to you. We each have our own tastes. But for me, I have grown tired of that and moved on.

 

[Ashlea]

I think most genre fiction is plagued by publishers not being willing to take a chance on anything but a tried and true formula. Sometimes a writer is able to make something new out of the formula, and sometimes we get Modesitt writing the SAME DAMN BOOK 8 times. (*Puts flame suit within easy reach just in case there are any Modesitt fans.*)

But it's true of mystery, romance, sci fi AND fantasy, the lack of originality is widespread. Anything vaguely original that slips through and finds an audience is immediately copied to death. I expect the rush of Da Vinci Code clones any minute now.

 

[Wabbit]

Very true Ashlea

BUT and here is the big but... I just feel it's MUCH MUCH MUCH more so in the fantasy genre.

I mean, not every crime book is the same. And yet, it seems to me, that every fantasy has to be made up of 3 books ( or more ). Every fantasy book has a hero. A kingdom/world in peril. 90 percent of them have this plot or a variation of this plot.

 

[fluffy bunny]

Good topic magemanda. I guess I'm with the Wabbit on this one. The 'epic quest' had me bored a long time ago. As you read more and more, the more originality you want in your stories. However, despite what bookshops have stocked on their shelves, there are still quite a few good books out there.

It's easy to take the view that all fantasy stems from the same source (ie Tolkein), and a number of works of modern fantasy do. Some people have complained that modern authors don't read the variety of books that their predecessors 40 years ago did (not just Tolkein, but Howard, Eddison, and wait for it... other books from other genres ).

However I'd say that 95% of all fiction isn't that original regardless of the time period it was written in. You have to dig hard to find the good stuff. In fact, you'd be better off looking for some of the winners of the world fantasy awards in the 'normal' fiction, or in the horror sections of the bookshop (where 'snobs' can say it isn't fantasy. I seem to recall that Atwood doesn't like her books to be labelled science fiction), and leave the Tolkein clones in the Fantasy section.

 

[Jessica089]

Amanda, he he, that would be me, I should have been more specfic. I so agree with even though I never straight out realised it until you mentioned. I used to think fantasy is cliche, that was before I ever actually read it.

When I told my Dad I found a new love in fantasy he just looked at me weird. I don't know if he knew he was being so blunt, but he was an it was not very nice. At the time I didn't understand why, I just kept thinking how wonderful and exciting fantasy is. I can't believe my own Father was judging me on the genre I love to read. I hate how people stereotype fantasy and look down upon those who love it. It's a wonderful genre that leaves room for endless imagination.

It's thanks to the internet that I can talk to people who actually like this genre or I think I might go crazy!

 

[Litany]

I think the people who look down on fantasy the most are the sci fi readers, to be honest. I read both, but I know a lot of people who only read sci fi and aren't interested in any other genres, and they really slate fantasy. Which is dumb as there's not much difference between the genres other than the settings. Fantasy tends towards past societies and sci fi towards future societies.

So I think it's a sort of snobbishness. There is an awful lot of cliche in fantasy, but so what? The whole world is full of cliche. People love cliches. The important part is how you write your cliche. Are the characters engaging, is the story interesting, does anyone give a toss whether they live or die? But what fantasy doesn't have is the technical angle. Instead of science and machines it uses magic and wizards. Instead of robots we have slaves. Instead of aliens we have foreign nations who use the odd italicised word here and there. We still have dystopic societies, and dirty hidden secrets to discover, it's just that the magic and dragons angle means a lot of people don't see there's anything to gain from that. Whereas if it's set in some made up future, well that could happen, so it counts as a warning and that makes it art and therefore worthy.

There are some fantastic cross overs between the genres, the Dune books and China Mieville's books are obvious examples, and more and more I see the lines between fantasy, horror and science fiction being blurred and the results can be fantastic. These books even drag in the sci fi fans who don't seem to realise they're actually reading fantasy. Mwahahahaha.

So the next time you get mocked for reading fantasy by your dad, ask him what his thoughts are on Dune. Because it's damn well fantasy. The voice and the weirding way? Magic. Sand worms? Dragons. Freman? Slaves. Bene Gesserit? Witches. it's even got bloody prophecies. People might moan that it's unreadable, but no one ever slates it for being cliched fantasy. That's because all the fools think it's sci fi. Set it in space and change the names around a bit and they all lap it up. But set it in a land occupied with desert and wizards and they shun it.

 

[defiant_whisper]

I think the people who look down on fantasy the most are the sci fi readers, to be honest. I read both, but I know a lot of people who only read sci fi and aren't interested in any other genres, and they really slate fantasy. Which is dumb as there's not much difference between the genres other than the settings. Fantasy tends towards past societies and sci fi towards future societies.

I agree with this. However, I, like you, read both genres. In fact, i read almost every genre there is. The only genres I haven't found a liking for so far are romance and westerns. Notice I say "so far," I'm always willing to read books from any genre. I don't always like them all, but how do you know you don't like something until you try it?

 

[rune]

None of my friends, family or work associates read fantasy. And they do give me a strange look when I say I do

I love fantasy, but I do believe sometimes a series can go on to long.
But that doesnt include series like The Dresden Files which is basically a new story each book with the same characters I love that series, it's brilliant

I do wonder if others look down at fantasy because a lot of authors do insist on writing great detailed books. I dont agree with this at all and find it spoils the enjoyment, why prattle on about things you really dont need to know to enjoy the story However, I know a lot of people who read fantasy won't agree with me, so many do love getting all the detail about the world that fantasy writers create.

I personally like the more old fashion type fantasy, you know like LOTR's. But I also like more modern fantasy and dark fantasy which steps out of that view and quite often links a real world feel with the strangeness and magic of fantasy Harry Potter was a good example of this and Dresden Files, Anita Blake and King Rat are but a few
So I quite like the fact that authors are spreading their imagination and creating strange worlds, unusual creatures, taking the real and making it strange. It adds a new element to fantasy, keeping it fresh. Therefore where is the clinche, I don't see it, there are so many different types of fantasy around now that I find my list of favourite authors and ongoing series getting so long I may not live long enough to buy them all


I think that people who scoff at fantasy readers dont have any imagination. They can't step out of their worlds into something strange and unusual. They can't suspend their beliefs and allow themselves to get lost in a fantasy world. Their Loss!

 

[funes]

I think a lot of the posts here have made very good points about the problems with fantasy. Especially this business of mistaking the presentation of elaborate detail for good writing. It bores me to tears when Tom Clancy does it, too. And, as with any genre, it is always on the verge of becoming self-parody.
However, I think that a lot of these problems can be overcome by ignoring the pigeonholing of publishers. Guys like Haruki Murakami, Jonathan Carroll, Jonathan Lethem, Gracia-Marquez, Borges, Jeannette Winterson(?), Eric Garcia, etc. have all written "fantasy"; and you can find them all over the bookstore, not just in the sci-fi/fantasy section.

 

[Zolipara]

Although i like fantasy a lot, most fantasy books contain way too many cliches. Its really hard to find fantasy books with some originality to them. Although sci-fi books are not always original either, i find its a much more varied genre. Too many fantasy writers are too afraid of stepping out of the Tolkien mold, but that may be connected to the way the average fantasy reader seems to think a book is great as long as it has dragons and swords. Some of the most popular fantasy writers are among the most unoriginal. How can a book like Sword of Shannara become popular when its just a badly written scene for scene ripoff of LoTR? Why does anyone read David Eddings books?

You can tell a lot about fantasy books just from knowing the sex of the writer. Male authors usually write highly action filled storys. The characters are usually pretty one-dimensional, and the love scenes are horrible. The magic is usually of the Army-slaying type. Female writers tend to have less action scenes, the story does not necessarily progress through a violent encounter. Their characters are usually more interesting and the love scenes dont make you want to skip the page. There are usually more elves, and the magic is often of a more subtle (though not necessarily less powerful) nature than the flameballs favoured by male authors.

There are quite a few respected sci-fi authors, but with the exception of Tolkien there are not many that are respected outside of the realm of fantasy fans. This is not a coincidence.

I wish fantasy writers would:
- Step out of the Tolkien mold.
- Finish a story even if the characters are popular.(Wheel of Time is the prime example.
- Spend more time making their characters believable. Too many fantasy characters are one-dimensional stereotypes. It gets old really fast especially after 5000 pages.
- Be aware of their limitations. If you cannot write long lovescenes dont write them.

 

[direstraits]

i love fantasy. i don't exclusively read fantasy, but a mixture of almost anything, really, so i'd like to think i have a balanced diet where my reading habits are concerned. however, i personally find fantasy more often than not gives me that satisfying 'oomph' i'm looking for in a good read.

to all who bemoan the fact that contemporary fantasy walks a path so well worn that every fantasy story begins to sound alike, and the fact that they tend to stretch too damn long, i want to say i agree with you.

personally, i don't really care if its premise is unoriginal (everything is tied to something or other nowadays, millennia of storytelling invariably leaves very few stones unturned), but i've got to *enjoy* it - be it writing, or a single differentiating idea, or memorable characters, whatever.

i think the trick lies in finding the right kinds of fantasy that you'd like. something that's fresh, but feels comfortably familiar in settings and style. for those who haven't, i'd like to humbly recommend the works of guy gavriel kay.

his fantasy works are single self-contained novels (like _tigana_ and _the lions of al-rassan_), and the furthest he's gone is a 2-novel gem of a story (_the sarantium mosaic_, i think it was).

there may be an author out there who'd tweak your knobs and get you excited with fantasy again...

for myself, i'm jaded enough to stay away from fantasy that smells like it's going to bore me, but not so jaded that i wouldn't want to keep trying to find something that i'll like. it yielded GGKay and George RR Martin, so life's good.

ds

 

[Linguana]

Reading fantasy is a quest for itself. I've been reading ever since I was three but discovered the fantasy genre only when I was 12. But then I read fantasy, exclusively. And only one type of fantasy. You know, the boy/girl from our world suddenly finds him/herself in a magnificent fantasy realm, where he/she saves the world, then comes back and is so much more grown-up. I loved that. Now it's way too shallow a story for me, although (and that is a big "although") there are always hidden gems. Even if you can tell how the story is going to end, what's going to happen to whom, a book can still capture you, be it because of great and detailed characters, of places you'd love to go yourself one day (if they existed) or any other reason.

There is this strange rivalry between the fantasy and the sci-fi genre, although, as Litany has pointed out so perfectly, it's basically the same, just set at another time! If it's future it's sci-fi, if it's past (or an other time, entirely) it's fantasy. I never quite understood that. Why do we have to categorize everything?

I get strange looks from my friends all the time for reading fantasy. They say things like "Why don't you read something intelligent, once in a while?". But, you know, I read books of practically every genre (except maybe for pure crime) and I KNOW why fantasy is still my favourite genre!
It's again as Litany said - fantasy is not only elves and ogres and giants and fairies and towers and quests and stuff, it's also discovering a whole new world, it's friendship (mostly), it's about love, faith, truth, believing in yourself, it includes so many more genres. In almost every fantasy story (book/series/trilogy/tetralogy/...) there are elements of crime, thriller, action, relationships, history, etc. so how can anyone say fantasy is inferior to all the other genres???

And for the cliché thing... it's true, of course. Nobody can deny that. But it's the same with EVERY single other genre!!! Take a crime story for example. There we have an investigator (like the hero in fantasy) who investigates a crime (like the quest) to find the bad guy (like the evil magician or whatever). Rarely investigators search all by themselves, so they, too, have a side-kick (like the fairy/elf/you name it). And in crime, there is also at least one dark secret to be discovered, e.g. the motive of the murderer! Every crime story more or less follows that scheme. So, why doesn't anybody complain about crime being a completely clichéd genre?
It's just the same for most other genres.

So, no matter what people say, how they mock me, I'll just smile and turn away and sit back with a good fantasy book . All I'll tell them is: You have no idea what you're missing.

 

[Cathy C]

Fantasy is an escape from reality.

I think a lot of people who enjoy fantasy probably read it for the same reason that I do -- as an escape from this particular reality. When the world in danger isn't your own and the bad guys have clear, simple motivations for evil and can be vanquished, it takes one away from this world, Earth, where nothing is simple and the bad guys can melt back into the background to strike again another day.

That said, I agree that a lot of fantasy is cliched, but many readers prefer that familiarity. It's just one more relaxation technique, meant to calm and lull the reader. One recent example was Mercedes Lackey, and her refusal to continue the "Guardians" series. Frankly, the book wasn't selling very well, and she was tired of the characters, so she stopped writing it. But fans got up in arms, going so far as to issue death threats against her and her family if she didn't continue the line. Extreme? Sure, but to some, fantasy IS their reality.

I don't go so far as that, but I re-read a lot of books that have stellar characters and rich plots, but also because they're familiar and comfortable. After a hard day, it's kind of nice to curl up in front of the fireplace and crack open The Sorcerer's Stone or one of the Harry Dresdens again. Maybe I'll pick up a nuance here or there that I didn't notice, and get lost in a pleasant world.

JMHO!

Cathy

 

[Ashlea]

One recent example was Mercedes Lackey, and her refusal to continue the "Guardians" series. Frankly, the book wasn't selling very well, and she was tired of the characters, so she stopped writing it. But fans got up in arms, going so far as to issue death threats against her and her family if she didn't continue the line. Extreme? Sure, but to some, fantasy IS their reality.

I actually read somewhere that she stopped the series as some of the fans were getting way too fanatic about it. Evidently some of the mail she was getting was worrisome.

 

[BlackSpider]

With the Lord of the Rings smashing the box-office and winning ELEVEN Oscars... I ask myself:

Why don't these people ask themselves, "Where have these books been my whole life?"
and
"Are there any other books that can compare?"

It's a better genre than most critics give it credit for. It also has a lot more poorly written books than most fans give it credit for.

In my opinion, many authors write because of their enthusiasm for the genre. It is only occasionally, therefore, that we encounter someone truly gifted with what it takes to create, not copy.

Just this past summer, I was passing through the library and picked up a few books... It had been a long time since I had read anything GOOD. One of the books was a piece of refuse that I couldn't even finish. The kind of book that gives fantasy the bad name you've all mentioned.

The second... was incredible. Such a refreshing breath of fresh air! I was beginning to feel that I'd never find a fantasy author with any amount of skill ever again. He revived my faith in the genre.

Fantasy is cliched. Most authors aren't published for their skills in writing. Most DO copy the few excellent ones. Yet, occasionally, we do get some of the most imaginative, creative minds! And they make it all worthwhile!


Homer--the first fantasy "author"
Tolkien--incredible
Herbert--incredible
Jordan--can't write but has great stories
Russell--my new favorite author

Frankly, I don't care what other people think about it... I get what I want out of the books that I read.

 

[hay82]

Guy gavriel

guy gavriel kay.

his fantasy works are single self-contained novels (like _tigana_ and _the lions of al-rassan_), and the furthest he's gone is a 2-novel gem of a story (_the sarantium mosaic_, i think it was).

Sorry direstraits but he actually has a trilogi called The Fionavar Tapestry but like his other works this is also worth reading. The only thing about kay I dislike is the fact that he chose to write an epilogue to The Lions of Al-Rassan, if someone is reading the book my recommendation is to skip the epilogue it takes the fun out of the end.

I don't really think it matters if the genre is cliched all genres are to some extent. The most important thing to me is that the writer makes me belive in what he/she writes and that I am able to imagine the world and live in it while I read the book. The thing about the "hero-save-the-world" stories out there is that "everybody" loves a hero and when you read the book then the hero is you. (Please don't tell anyone but I'm really Batman )
A problem with fantasy is the image it has to a lot of people. We all know that people who read fantasy are nerds with glasses from the 70s who lives with his parents at 45. Well I don't have glasses, nor do I live with my parents... the nerd thing is probably right

My knowledge of the fantasy genre is not that great yet, I have only read fantasy for about a year, and have curretly read the following books:

Robert Jordan - Wheel of time (Why did he write the books 8-10? )
George R R Martin - A song of fire and Ice (Great series so far, Currently reading Fevre Dream)
Robin Hobb - The Tawny Man series (Found it a bit slow at times but excelent none the less, planning on reading the two previous series)
Guy Gavriel Kay - Everything (I just love everything he has written except that epilogue)
Anne Rice - most (What can I say she made me like stories about Vampires, so if you know any good ones let me know)
Philip Pullman - Dark Materials Trilogy (Got it as a gift and read it. Different but good)
J. K. Rowling - Harry Potter 1-5 (Childrens book, I'm 22 and love it )
Tolkien - Lord of the Ring (tedious at times but I like the world)
Tolkien - The Hobbit (I found this better than LOTR though the elves, imo, where silly at times)

So that's my basis for judging the fantasy genre, might be I'll change my opinion after I have read more.

 

[direstraits]

Sorry direstraits but he actually has a trilogi called The Fionavar Tapestry but like his other works this is also worth reading.

Damn.

I stand corrected, Hay82, you're right - he did write a trilogy. I've less excuse than most in making that mistake because Books 1 and 3 (missing Book 2) is sitting on my shelves!

The only thing about kay I dislike is the fact that he chose to write an epilogue to The Lions of Al-Rassan, if someone is reading the book my recommendation is to skip the epilogue it takes the fun out of the end.

I thought the epilogue gave a book a fitting end, though.

Cheers!

ds

 

[hay82]

I thought the epilogue gave a book a fitting end, though.

Spoiler

The thing I dislike about the epilogue is the fact that, in the end of the story, you see one of them fall and the other go down to his knees and at that point you don't know who won or if they both die. Then you read the epilogue and find out who it was and I think that spoiled the real ending, I liked having to imagine what happend next.