Adolf Hitler: Mein Kampf

[Keks]

Sorry, maybe this sounds old-fashioned or what ever, but I think it's a shame that everybody can buy Mein Kampf in a bookstore!!! It would be unthinkable in Germany!
I do not support cencorship, but this is a book that should be banned everywhere, as it's the basis of an ideology which caused so much destruction, death and unimaginable agony.

 

[Shade]

I disagree that it should be banned, keks. I think it's important for people to be able to see and read what Hitler himself thought, however wrong or twisted those thoughts might be. It's also important for anyone who supported him (or still follows his ideologies) to know that the reason they are not accepted in mainstream society is not because they are censored, but because they are repellent.

 

[mehastings]

I disagree that it should be banned, keks. I think it's important for people to be able to see and read what Hitler himself thought, however wrong or twisted those thoughts might be. It's also important for anyone who supported him (or still follows his ideologies) to know that the reason they are not accepted in mainstream society is not because they are censored, but because they are repellent.

Yes, I completely agree. It is important for people to know what Hitler was all about, so that we don't forget it. It won't be fifty years before everyone who was alive during that time frame is gone. By sheltering ourselves from the truth we do nothing positive toward remembering those that lost their lives as a result of Hitler's rule.

 

[pontalba]

What I'd like to see is people not wanting to act in a manner compatible with Mein Kampf. But thats not going to happen in this lifetime. There will always be some. Banning the book would only lend mystique to it, and make some even more curious about it. Perhaps even lending a bit of credibility that it does not possess.
A friend of my Aunt's that was in a concentration camp told her that thinking was the only thing there that was not controlled. The Nazis could not take that away. So how can we? And isn't that what censorship attempts to do?

 

[AlphaOmegaX]

I disagree that it should be banned, keks. I think it's important for people to be able to see and read what Hitler himself thought, however wrong or twisted those thoughts might be. It's also important for anyone who supported him (or still follows his ideologies) to know that the reason they are not accepted in mainstream society is not because they are censored, but because they are repellent.

I agree. I don't learn about the Holocaust and whatnot because I have to. I learn it because I want to. I have a 1500 page Holocaust book with more graphic images in it than altavista dot com. I read and learn this stuff because I want to. I want to see what people went through. I won't stay sheltered from it all and I won't shun it away. I'll learn it. The end.

~Josh

 

[Thaibebop]

Sorry, maybe this sounds old-fashioned or what ever, but I think it's a shame that everybody can buy Mein Kampf in a bookstore!!! It would be unthinkable in Germany!
I do not support cencorship, but this is a book that should be banned everywhere, as it's the basis of an ideology which caused so much destruction, death and unimaginable agony.

The same thing could be said of many religious books. No, to ban would be to forget, that must never happen. I suggest, al well, that since most here seem to be interested in the Era that you read The Rape of Nanking. The holocaust just wasn't in Europe.

 

[Keks]

I didn't want to say people shouldn't know what happend during this time, but here this is done in school. we're learning so much about the Holocaust and everything at school, we visited Buchenwald, it's a former concentration camp, and the Holocaust memorial in Berlin. I always become so angry, even if I only think about it!! I will never forget what I saw at Buchenwald, it's so horrible I have no words to describe. This time is always present in the minds and most of the Germans still feel ashamed for the things that happend. It kind of feels as if it was my fault, too, even if that simply not true, as I've been born nearly 45 years after the war ended.
The other thing is Hitler was a brilliant speaker, he knew how to convince the people. If you ever listened to a speech of his or read one, you'll know what I mean. And I think is the same with his book. Most people know everything he says is rubbish, but there are always some who take this stuff seriously. That's why I think this book is really dangerous, as his ideas still appeal to some people. That's the case where I live, in Saxony. We have a high unempolyment rate (about 20-25%) and especially young and not well educated people who don't see a future for thereselves are a target for the extrme right-winged again. We even have a extreme right-winged party in our state parliament in Saxony again. That's really frightening!!!! I don't know if free access to his book would make the situation worse, but certainly would "feed" the right-winged and they would become more selfconfident.
That's why I think the book should be banned.

 

[ValkyrieRaven88]

I read part of it. It was okay. I was trying to figure out why he hated Jewish people, and I didn't. Freaky thing was, even though he seemed to be talking about nothing, I couldn't put the book down. It's like something's forcing you to hear him. Later I heard someone else describe his speeches in the same way.
BTW, Keks, I know the book is dangerous, but banning it will probably only encourage more people to read it, and then they will think the government is trying to keep them from knowing about such ideas. I really don't think it's benefitial to anyone to ban books.

 

[veggiedog]

I read part of it. It was okay. I was trying to figure out why he hated Jewish people, and I didn't. Freaky thing was, even though he seemed to be talking about nothing, I couldn't put the book down. It's like something's forcing you to hear him. Later I heard someone else describe his speeches in the same way.

He didn't just hate Jews either. He hated anyone and everyone who didn't fit into his paradigm of the 'perfect race,' (which should ironically include himself). Almost half of the people he killed were not Jews--they were Gypsies, the disabled, the mentally retarded, the elderly, the homosexuals, etc. But he was a great leader. Such a great mind gone to waste, and the deaths of millions of innocent people...

I tried reading parts of his book, but found it too dull to continue. I know you may be trying to figure out what was going on in his head when he caused so many atrocities, but I doubt you find anything in there besides propaganda. He wasn't truly writing down his true thoughts and beliefs, only what he would see fit to have published for people to read and feel sympathy for him or connect with him on some level.

Of course, if you want to know all aspects of what was going on at the time, I suppose you'd have to read Hitler's work because there is nothing else as close to his mind as his mind...

I don't think the book should be banned either. It's not that people shouldn't read it, because I think that there are a lot of books that people need to read that are banned. Just because a book is offensive to someone isn't a reason to have it banned. In a sense, all books, or at least those that have point, are dangerous. We can't limit people's freedoms to safeguard against something that may occur in the future (and I doubt it will). I understand that you are upset about what happened, but limiting the freedom of the press wouldn't be the way to solve it. People who are inspired to commit evil acts by this book are dangerous individuals in the first place. Something would have eventually triggered them anyways. How are we supposed to learn from our mistakes without the firsthand material evidence of their consequences?

Of course, I can't speak for your German government and the German people, as I have never been there.

 

[ValkyrieRaven88]

No, Hitler didn't just hate Jews. He hated gypsies, homosexuals, Native Americans, blacks...basically everyone who wasn't blond-haired and blue-eyed and German. He had dark hair and green eyes, and I have heard that he was a quarter Jewish.
Believe me, I don't agree with a single thing he did. After all, I'm not 100% white, I'm bisexual, and I'm very opinionated. I'd be one of the first executed if he were to take over the world now. But I don't believe anyone's ideas should be censored or banned (except in the case of children). Besides, this way the world can see what a wacko Hitler was (for lack of a better word that I won't get in trouble for using).

 

[AlphaOmegaX]

Jeez this is getting way more...talked about than I thought it would. I'm kinda afraid to read it now.

~Josh

 

[Keks]

I can really understand your point of view, I think it's just got something to do with my nationality and very thing

I read part of it. It was okay. I was trying to figure out why he hated Jewish people, and I didn't. Freaky thing was, even though he seemed to be talking about nothing, I couldn't put the book down. It's like something's forcing you to hear him. Later I heard someone else describe his speeches in the same way.

That's exactly what I meant when I said he knew how to convince and capture the people.He really was an excellent speaker.

I think he just hated himself and that took part in his ideology: his gandmother was a jew, he wasn't blonde and blue-eyed, and rumors also say he was gay. So he himself would have been one of the first ones to be executed!!
Did you know he wanted to become a painter? He tried several times to be accepted at a art-school in Vienna, but he always was dismissed. That really frustrated him and he took part in World War I. I think that's been the time when he developped his ideas.

 

[ions]

Out of curiosity I would like to read it. He was a very intelligent man. He did turn a poor Germany into a power house. Many of his ideas and the ideas of those around him still influence our world today. He was Time magazine's Man of the Year in 1938. Am I defending Hitler? No. Just saying that Mein Kampf may not be completely devoid of good ideas. What's that saying about throwing away the baby with the bathwater? Unfortunately Heather Reisman, CEO of Chapters/Indigo, has decided that Canada's largest book chain will not carry Mein Kampf. It's not in the system and can not be ordered. That bothers me a little bit but I'm sure if I really wanted to find the book I could. Like the first Google result for Mein Kampf maybe.

Elie Wiesel's Night is a great holocaust read. Short and very sad.

 

[pontalba]

That's exactly what I meant when I said he knew how to convince and capture the people.He really was an excellent speaker.

Did you know he wanted to become a painter? He tried several times to be accepted at a art-school in Vienna, but he always was dismissed. That really frustrated him and he took part in World War I. I think that's been the time when he developped his ideas.

Years ago I read of a woman I believe an Englishwoman that was some sort of news correspondent, (I'm sorry, the details are extremely vague in my mind) anyway, she was totally against Hitler and everything she saw that he stood for. She attended one of his Rallys, and was mesmerized. As against him as she was, she was still totally fascinated by him.
He possessed Total Charisma. So imagine a Germany in a deep depression, people looking for someone to lead them out of the chaos that was all about. Of course they followed him. They saw what they wanted to see. They only saw the tip of the tip of the iceburg.

And yes, I'd read of his attempts to become an accepted artist. I believe he blamed Jews for his not being accepted, instead of the fact that he Had No Talent.

 

[beer good]

And yes, I'd read of his attempts to become an accepted artist. I believe he blamed Jews for his not being accepted, instead of the fact that he Had No Talent.

Now, see how far we've come since then. Back in the 20s, all he could do was start a fascist take-over. If it were today, he'd set up a myspace account for his writings and spend all his time googling conspiracy sites and getting banned from forums.

 

[Peder]

Jeez this is getting way more...talked about than I thought it would. I'm kinda afraid to read it now.
~Josh

Well, AlphaOmegaX,
Please don't feel that way about it, because I sense that you have a genuine curiosity about the topic. The "what" of what happened, is relatively easy to come by. There are the mammoth histories by Shirer(1960), Toland(ca.1976), Kershaw(2000) and Evans 2vols (2004, 2005) that are readily available. They are currently on the bookshelf at my local Borders, and there are many others that have been written.

I have the feeling though that you are at least as much interested in the "why" of what happened; that is harder to get a grip on. Hitler's own words are not the only records of his direct words and ideas. The Goebbels Diaries are also authentic and contemporaneous first-hand accounts of discussions at the high command level as far as I can tell, although I have not read them. Others have also recorded their first-hand accounts.

The question of why he hated Jews and others, I think fits in with the larger topic of Jewish persecution. It has a long history, was not new with Hitler, and has not ended with him. And I suspect it would be a near impossible topic for this forum. But there is no doubt a large literature.

The question of why he came to power and was elected by democratic means, with a large plurality that was almost a majority, is also worth looking at. In my reading of several authors it has everything to do with the politics and economics of the times (Doesn't it always?)

So, if you start with the curiosity of wanting to know "Why?" then you will be able to make headway and learn quite a bit about the origins of one of the greatest calamities of all history. And in support of that last statement BTW, and just for perspective, allow me to mention three or four numbers, beside which all others pale.
1. Genghis Khan reportedly annihilated a large fraction of the populations he conquered during his years from Mongolia to Europe.
2. Stalin murdered about 20 million in the Gulag
3. Hitler murdered somewhere in the range 8-12 million in the camps.
4. We now read that Mao allowed/caused "tens of millions" to perish.

No other tyrants or even natural calamities come anywhere close to such numbers! To my mind Hitler was the very personification of evil, beyond which there is no greater evil. And the better informed we all are, the better it is for the long range prospects of civilization.
Sorry for the rant,
But it should not be allowed to happen again,
And knowledge has to be the best way of preventing it,
Peder

 

[beer good]

The saddest part is, it seems even if we say "it shouldn't be allowed to happen again", it still does. Stalin and Mao (and Pol Pot) all came AFTER Hitler. (OK, Stalin was contemporary but stayed in power longer.) All the more reason to talk/read/write about it, obviously. I'd have no problem categorizing either of these as "evil", but the question is - how and why can tyrants like these get people to support and follow them?

 

[Peder]

The saddest part is, it seems even if we say "it shouldn't be allowed to happen again", it still does. Stalin and Mao (and Pol Pot) all came AFTER Hitler. (OK, Stalin was contemporary but stayed in power longer.) All the more reason to talk/read/write about it, obviously. I'd have no problem categorizing either of these as "evil", but the question is - how and why can tyrants like these get people to support and follow them?

Beer good,
It does happen doesn't it?
In the case of Hitler, to stay more or less on topic, it seems to me that he came to power by one process but stayed in power by another. He came to power, as far as I can tell -- and I would be very glad to hear from anyone who knows better -- very roughly speaking by being an effective (and deceptive) politician and appealing to reasonably legitimate needs and desires of the electorate (relief of severe economic distress, desire for national autonomy, freedom from 'foreign' interference). He did not overtly campaign on the measures that he instituted once he became Chancellor, (concentration camps, mass exterminations, dictatorship, world war). Once elected, he abrogated legitimate democracy and progressively gathered power to himself until he no longer needed support of the people in any democratic sense. He instituted an illegal and criminal government that depended on violent and deadly force, is the best way I can summarize it in very broad terms. And some of his followers were quite cynical about it, saying that after they were elected to power then they would seize power. Through it all, he relied on what was called The Big Lie -- repeating lies over and over again until people came to accept them. In Russia the communists evidently seized power through revolution right from the outset. Mao and Pol Pot are beyond my knowledge.

PS Part of this dynamic can be read in "Germans into Nazis" by Pieter Fritzsche, Harvard University Press, 1998. More comprehensive views of Hitler are contained in "Hitler - A Study in Tyranny" by Allan Bullock, Harper Collins,1964 (abridged edition, 1971), and also "The Hitler of History" by John Lukacs, Random House, 1997. The last named is "a history of history: the history of the evolution of our knowledge about Hitler."(p. xi). These I have read. There are of course the larger histories mentioned in the previous post, and Evans vol.1 waits patiently on my shelf.

PPS In case it makes a difference, these readings were recommended to me by the very knowledgeable owner of my local bookstore, in response exactly to the question you asked: "How and why he could come to power" which, amazingly, I asked her about two years ago. Uncanny!

Peder

 

[beer good]

Good point, Peder, and thanks for the recommendations. One small point though:

In Russia the communists evidently seized power through revolution right from the outset.

That's not quite accurate. The ones that came to power following the February revolution of 1917 were an alliance of liberals and socialists that did NOT include Lenin's bolsheviks. The bolsheviks then had their own revolution in October and seized power.

The story of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge is quite interesting - and more than a little embarrassing from a Western perspective. I recently read a book on it, unfortunately in Swedish, but I'm told Philip Short's "Pol Pot: Anatomy Of A Nightmare" is really good. For instance, unlike most dictators, he never really sought to be the pseudo-religious figurehead of the revolution and the ensuing government - in fact, one of the ways the Khmer Rouge got the support of so many Cambodians was by hinting that they were going to re-install the (corrupt but popular) monarchy, so a lot of their followers apparently thought they were fighting in ex-King Sihanouk's name. Pol Pot himself kept to the shadows for much of the time, both before, during and after his reign.

 

[pontalba]

Peder I'd completely forgotten about Bullock's Hitler--A Study in Tyranny, I agree that was an excellent choice, as the Toland that I recommended above. I'm not familiar with the newer ones.