April 2013: Erin Morgenstern, The Night Circus

[Meadow337]

That was not exactly my point in mentioning Faulkner or Ulysses.

Regarding coherence and structure, I think it is there, and even can be seen to follow a typical 5-stage dramatic sequence: 1) introduction, 2) rising action, 3) climax, 4) falling action, and 5)denoument, with elements of mystery building throughout.

can you give examples from the text as to where that happens, because to be completely honest with you, I utterly fail to see any coherence, let alone any climax, or denouement. In fact both I would say both are as lacking as the plot. Denouement is the final resolution or clarification of a dramatic or narrative plot. And if there is deliberately no plot how can there be a resolution of what does not exist?

 

[Sparhawk]

Sounds like I was the smart one when I decided to run away to the circus! LOL

 

[Ronny]

I might have to pick this up from the library, to refresh my memory a bit. I remember being a little disappointed in the book but I did not dislike it all together. I remember the cover was beautiful and I really liked the concept of the book. I think like Meadow I felt let down by the lack of plot and ultimately just the lack of pulling all the strings together. It seemed like she had great ideas but a hard time deciding what to do with them. I think if there was a sequel I would read it hoping to see more (and improved) bits of the story.

 

[Polly Parrot]

I'm only a few pages in but already struggling. Will keep going though. It reminds me of Paul Auster's Mr. Vertigo, which I didn't like at all.

 

[Peder]

can you give examples from the text as to where that happens,

Yes.


As to your final question, how there can be any structure if there is no plot, that just suggests to me that we are miles apart in what we see in the book, and that no short answer to your first question will suffice to be convincing. I hate to synopsize the whole book to answer your first question, in view of your final question, but I'll give it some thought.

 

[pontalba]

I think you've driven your point home Meadow, you don't like the book, don't see anything to it. Fine, that is your perogative. To each their own kettle of fish.

I enjoyed reading it, cared about the protagonists, saw the plotlines. That is my view, and perhaps others as well. I don't believe it is my job to convince anyone to like or dislike any book.

Anything more on that aspect of discussion seems to be a rehash. I am hoping that someone else will step up and give their impressions, good or ill.

Polly, you mention Auster's Mr. Vertigo...is that the only Auster you've read? I haven't read that one yet, but have read 5 -6 others and enjoyed them He is rather "Twilight Zone" oriented.

 

[Meadow337]

I think you've driven your point home Meadow, you don't like the book, don't see anything to it. Fine, that is your perogative. To each their own kettle of fish.

I enjoyed reading it, cared about the protagonists, saw the plotlines. That is my view, and perhaps others as well. I don't believe it is my job to convince anyone to like or dislike any book.

Anything more on that aspect of discussion seems to be a rehash. I am hoping that someone else will step up and give their impressions, good or ill.

Polly, you mention Auster's Mr. Vertigo...is that the only Auster you've read? I haven't read that one yet, but have read 5 -6 others and enjoyed them He is rather "Twilight Zone" oriented.

Wow who stepped on your blue suede shoes - as with my impression of the novel being dark ... I'm happy to concede when I'm wrong. If some one can see a point to the book - please share it because if there is some moment in the book which all is made clear I would be happy to hear about it.

 

[Peder]

If some one can see a point to the book - please share it because if there is some moment in the book which all is made clear I would be happy to hear about it.

Patience, patience, Meadow. Today will be a busy one here, but I am organizing thoughts to respond to your assertions that the story has nether plot nor structure. People are still reading (maybe!) but I'll get around to posting my thoughts eventually, unless the general discussion clarifies matters, as it might do, of course.

In the meantime, just to correlate page numbers, perhaps you might post the first and last page numbers for the text in the version you have. Thanks.

Cheers
Peder

 

[pontalba]

Wow who stepped on your blue suede shoes - as with my impression of the novel being dark ... I'm happy to concede when I'm wrong. If some one can see a point to the book - please share it because if there is some moment in the book which all is made clear I would be happy to hear about it.

Looking down at mah blue suede shoes.....nope, no marks there.
As I posted, several times, we obviously have differing views on the book, and I see no use in either of us beating our heads against that brick wall over yonder.

To quote my post over on Recently Finished thread.....
"Night Circus by Erin Morgenstern 4/5
Enjoyable fantasy, love story set against a magical circus and a combat by proxy of two Old Masters.
If you go to the BOTM for April...you'll see some widely varying views on this book. "
IMO, that is the main point. True love wins.

 

[Meadow337]

Patience, patience, Meadow. Today will be a busy one here, but I am organizing thoughts to respond to your assertions that the story has nether plot nor structure. People are still reading (maybe!) but I'll get around to posting my thoughts eventually, unless the general discussion clarifies matters, as it might do, of course.

In the meantime, just to correlate page numbers, perhaps you might post the first and last page numbers for the text in the version you have. Thanks.

Cheers
Peder

um lets - the 'first' page is on page 8

Target Practice LONDON, DECEMBER 1884 is on page 83

Truth or Dare - page 87

Condolences - page 110

the last page is 677

Looking down at mah blue suede shoes.....nope, no marks there.

GOOD!

 

[Peder]

um lets - the 'first' page is on page 8

Target Practice LONDON, DECEMBER 1884 is on page 83

Truth or Dare - page 87

Condolences - page 110

the last page is 677

I'm glad I asked! It looks almost like we have walked into two different Circuses! Just kidding. But we do have hardback and softback copies here, with respective last pages numbered 387 and 516, and Condolences, for example on pages 62 and 78.

Hmmm. The game is on, as the book says. I guess we'll correlate by chapter heading and text citation.

 

[Meadow337]

I'm glad I asked! It looks almost like we have walked into two different Circuses! Just kidding. But we do have hardback and softback copies here, with respective last pages numbered 387 and 516, and Condolences, for example on pages 62 and 78.

Hmmm. The game is on, as the book says. I guess we'll correlate by chapter heading and text citation.

lol maybe cos I downloaded and then converted to epub. The formatting changes considerably when you do that. My reader prefers epubs.

 

[Polly Parrot]

Polly, you mention Auster's Mr. Vertigo...is that the only Auster you've read? I haven't read that one yet, but have read 5 -6 others and enjoyed them He is rather "Twilight Zone" oriented.

Yes, Mr. Vertigo is (so far) the only Auster I've read. As I didn't enjoy it much at all it didn't exactly make me want to pick up another novel by him.

It reminds me of it because in Auster's novel a poor boy is picked up from the street and trained rather harshly to perform the supernatural feat of actually flying.

I am about 50 pages into The Night Circus and so far the two instructors are quite harsh on their respective pupils and they expect them to be a true magician and perform the impossible.

 

[Polly Parrot]

Read another fifty or so pages. Strangely, the novel is starting to grow on me a little. I still think the prose isn't all that great though. Not sure why.

 

[Peder]

Read another fifty or so pages. Strangely, the novel is starting to grow on me a little. I still think the prose isn't all that great though. Not sure why.

Yes, the first thing that struck me was how simple her sentences were, and how flat her character descriptions. It seemed to me to be a classical example of an event-driven, rather than character-driven, narrative. But, balancing that, I was really struck by her great imagination in creating vivid illusions and marvelous circus settings (at least IMO). . . .
. . . And, with her fascinating non-linear technique for telling a very complicated story which is part fantasy and part mystery There is eventually quite a bit to it (again IMO), and I hope it continues to grow on you.
Peder

 

[Peder]

can you give examples from the text as to where that happens, because to be completely honest with you, I utterly fail to see any coherence, let alone any climax, or denouement. In fact both I would say both are as lacking as the plot. Denouement is the final resolution or clarification of a dramatic or narrative plot. And if there is deliberately no plot how can there be a resolution of what does not exist?

Here is an excerpt of a response I am preparing to the questions you raise, Meadow.

​

Night Circus – Plot Outline and Dramatic Structure ​

(no spoilers)​

​

This is how I see the overall story and structure for a book that I found enjoyable. ​

​

First of all, this is not a story about a circus, or the lives of performers in a circus. The Circus is the magical venue which frames the actions of the characters in the story.​

Second, this is not a story about a contest. The contest eventually provides the key dramatic conflict for the story, and its details deliberately remain a mystery for much of the story.​

Third, this is a love story, as Pontalba has pointed out above; that should be surmised as soon as a girl and a boy are introduced as the two protagonists in the very first pages of the book.​

​

In short summary, this is a story about two people in love who are scheduled to be opponents in a magical contest set in the framework of a magical circus.​

​

The major suspense is how that will all work out.​

​

It should be noted that the author makes extensive use of her authorial prerogative to decide just how much information to reveal and withhold, and when and in what order, to build suspense and maintain interest throughout the book. The story, therefore, is overlaid with many of the elements of a mystery, as details are omitted, story gaps are left hanging, and deceptive red herrings are created, all until their resolution much later in the book. In addition, for added zest, the time frame floats back and forth occasionally.​

​

I'll use theater terminology for more vivid description of the plot structure. It is easy for me to imagine this story taking place live on the stage of a theater, in separate scenes and acts, and that is perhaps a good way to try to read the book. Hint, hint. ​

​

Now to the plot structure. (Chapter headings are indicated in italics.)​

​

Anticipation and Primordium are preliminary notes to provide background and raise interest for the production to be seen/read, much as program notes, or a Playbill, are distributed to the audience before a play begins.​

​

Act I - Introduction: Unexpected Post, through Truth or Dare.​

​

Act II - Rising Action: Associates and Conspirators, through Ailuromancy​

​

Act III - Climax: Téte-a-Téte, through Stormy Seas​

​

Act IV - Falling Action: An Entreaty, through Incendiary​

​

Act V: Denoument: Transmutation, through Bons Reves​

The plot summary as I see it (now largely complete) can be provided, with spoilers, as an expansion of this response when people are ready for it.

Hope this helps, even though one might of course choose other dividing points.

 

[Meadow337]

It is very difficult to discuss the book if discussions keep deferring to people who haven't read the book. Surely it is a pre-requisite for a discussion of this nature to have read the book so that the discussion doesn't stall on avoiding spoilers?

 

[Peder]

It is very difficult to discuss the book if discussions keep deferring to people who haven't read the book. Surely it is a pre-requisite for a discussion of this nature to have read the book so that the discussion doesn't stall on avoiding spoilers?

I think courtesy and friendliness are worth a little patience. I have previously been accused of being a "thread killer" and many unkinder epithets so I think it is worth the extra penny to wait out the delay or solicit people's thoughts before barging ahead. In any event there are ways to handle spoilers that were used in the previous forum (white fonts, spoiler tags, maybe others) that I have not yet re-familiarized myself with here.

 

[Meadow337]

Fair enough, but I was reading the original rules which state that books need to be voted on and chosen 4 - 6 weeks ahead of the start of discussion to allow sufficient time for every one to read the book. I was reading some of those old discussions and they certainly were pretty lively. Perhaps we need to get back to allowing more time between voting/choosing and discussing so that the book can just be discussed. I mean, after all, isn't a discussion of this nature meant to get into the 'meat' of the text?

 

[Meadow337]

I am new to this sort of discussion but I did presume that it was assumed every one had read the book.