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August 2008: D.H. Lawrence: Sons And Lovers
- Thread starter Stewart
- Start date
oskylad
Member
This book is really two books in one. Part 1, the first six chapters, is an interesting slice of life in and around the collieries of Nottinghamshire. Part 2 is a very different story, and one I found disappointing.
I'd suggest we discuss Part 1 first, and leave Part 2 aside for a week or so. This will allow late readers time to get through the book.
I'd suggest we discuss Part 1 first, and leave Part 2 aside for a week or so. This will allow late readers time to get through the book.
silverseason
New Member
Agreed. I am just finishing Part 1 and hope to say something about it before I am influenced by reading Part 2.
Libra
Active Member
I am starting this discussion with this comment from the book.
Mrs. Morel thinking about John Feild's Bible.
"she understood pretty well what he might or might not have been, so she preserved his Bible and kept his memory intact in her heart for her own sake."
It seemed to me she was holding on to a dream of what could have been with him and it helps her go on with what she has.(Mr. Morel)
Mrs. Morel thinking about John Feild's Bible.
"she understood pretty well what he might or might not have been, so she preserved his Bible and kept his memory intact in her heart for her own sake."
It seemed to me she was holding on to a dream of what could have been with him and it helps her go on with what she has.(Mr. Morel)
Libra
Active Member
Silvanous
New Member
I'm in Chapter 4 at the moment, furiously doing my best to read quickly...
With respect to Libra's comment:
I see Mrs. Morel as a lady wanting more in life (dreamer as opposed to doer) and using her children as a means to live her life more fully. Mr. Morel (IMHO) is not as bad as Mrs. Morel makes him out to be if only she would support him in some ways. I'm not saying Mr. Morel is perfect, but he does have an extremely hard manual job and perhaps he just wants a little more love then loathing from his wife when he gets home from a hard, long day at work. Over time this has caused a separation between father and the rest of the family - reaching a sort of stand-off whereby the family takes sides rather then acts as a whole microcosm leveraging the parts to create something better with the whole. I don't feel sorry for either of them however as both have an opportunity to change the situation and continue to do nothing about it as opposed to trying to work it out or move on with their respective lives. Since we are seeing this through the eyes of Paul (Lawrence), I can understand the slant in the mother's favor.
I'm only in Chapter 4, so perhaps I'm not ready to commit fully to an opinion but this is my take thus far...
With respect to Libra's comment:
I see Mrs. Morel as a lady wanting more in life (dreamer as opposed to doer) and using her children as a means to live her life more fully. Mr. Morel (IMHO) is not as bad as Mrs. Morel makes him out to be if only she would support him in some ways. I'm not saying Mr. Morel is perfect, but he does have an extremely hard manual job and perhaps he just wants a little more love then loathing from his wife when he gets home from a hard, long day at work. Over time this has caused a separation between father and the rest of the family - reaching a sort of stand-off whereby the family takes sides rather then acts as a whole microcosm leveraging the parts to create something better with the whole. I don't feel sorry for either of them however as both have an opportunity to change the situation and continue to do nothing about it as opposed to trying to work it out or move on with their respective lives. Since we are seeing this through the eyes of Paul (Lawrence), I can understand the slant in the mother's favor.
I'm only in Chapter 4, so perhaps I'm not ready to commit fully to an opinion but this is my take thus far...
Libra
Active Member
I also feel 1% sorry for him too, but drinking his money away when he has a family is hard to forgive. I like this book because it seems more like "real life". Those outbirsts of anger when they argued, feeling of "once " loving him.
And the jealousy from the father(Robert, remember when we mentioned in another post about this?) towards the children, because all her attention is going to them and not to him.
He hurts the children to get back at her.
silverseason
New Member
Now that I have finished Part 1, I have comments regarding two topics.
The first is Lawrence's picture of working class life. It feels absolutely real to me in its details: the bread with drippings, the pit scarf, the children's games, the men bringing in William's coffin. We see it in terms of family life, not just the worker and his work, but the way the entire family lives.
This includes the inevitable conflict between Paul's parents. Since it is told, mostly, through Paul's eyes his mother comes off looking like an innocent victim, struggling with her hard life. Her view is summed up by her saying to her youngest son: "If you don't like it, alter it, and if you can't alter it, put up with it." That is her view, but not that of her husband who does not try to alter it, only puts up with it. I have considerable sympathy with Paul's father. He goes to work, works hard, supports his family more or less, drinks but is no alcoholic, and is there when they really need him in times of sickness or death. He gets little appreciation for this. Yes, they are poor, but compare them with the family in Angela's Ashes! The miners eat regularly and some, at least, can aspire to a different life.
More to come, but I want to move on to Part 2.
The first is Lawrence's picture of working class life. It feels absolutely real to me in its details: the bread with drippings, the pit scarf, the children's games, the men bringing in William's coffin. We see it in terms of family life, not just the worker and his work, but the way the entire family lives.
This includes the inevitable conflict between Paul's parents. Since it is told, mostly, through Paul's eyes his mother comes off looking like an innocent victim, struggling with her hard life. Her view is summed up by her saying to her youngest son: "If you don't like it, alter it, and if you can't alter it, put up with it." That is her view, but not that of her husband who does not try to alter it, only puts up with it. I have considerable sympathy with Paul's father. He goes to work, works hard, supports his family more or less, drinks but is no alcoholic, and is there when they really need him in times of sickness or death. He gets little appreciation for this. Yes, they are poor, but compare them with the family in Angela's Ashes! The miners eat regularly and some, at least, can aspire to a different life.
More to come, but I want to move on to Part 2.
Libra
Active Member
Robert
Active Member
Gertrude and Walter have each done their part to create the problems we're seeing. I don't care for either of them. I feel sorry that the children have to grow up in a dysfunctional home.
I don't think Walter uses the children to get at Gertrude, but his violence seems to keep all but the youngest at arms length. Gertrudes attitude toward Walter also shades the childrens feeling for their father.
I don't think Walter uses the children to get at Gertrude, but his violence seems to keep all but the youngest at arms length. Gertrudes attitude toward Walter also shades the childrens feeling for their father.
Libra
Active Member
Maybe the word "uses" was not the right one Robert, but what was the reason for Walter
cutting the boys hair?
kicked one of the kids
Robert
Active Member
The paragraph before
cutting of the boys hair
As for Walter
kicking one of the kids
Libra
Active Member
Knowingly or unknowingly "to offend her" or "get to her" or "upset her" is for me a form of hurting her by way of the kids because she loved them so much and not showed any love to him.
I agree with you here.
Libra
Active Member
By hurting her I didn't mean physically, I meant ,her feelings,her heart, her soul.
Robert
Active Member
I know.
oskylad
Member
In some ways I feel sorry for Walter. He enjoys being with people and has a great need to be liked. That is what attracted Gertrude when they first met. But the need to be liked eventually led to his downfall in her eyes.
Throughout their marriage, Walter is afraid to tell Gertrude the truth because it would cause her to dislike him. In the seventh month of their marriage, Getrude discovered that Walter had misled her about his financial situation. Because of this "her manner had changed towards him. Something in her proud, honorable soul had crystalised out hard as rock."
Gertrude, on the other hand, lives her life through others. "She had a curious, receptive mind, which found much pleasure and amusement in listening to other folk. ... So she always had people tell her about themselves, finding her pleasure so."
"[Gertrude] was a puritan, ... high-minded, and really stern." She did not drink or dance. In order to please her, Walter "signed the pledge, and wore the blue ribbon of a teetotaller". But it didn't stick. As she turned away from him, his desire to be liked took him to the public houses where he could be liked by his friends.
Walter enjoyed being with his first child, William. He "was very affectionate, indulgent and full of ingenuity to amuse the child, when it pleased him". Then came the incident when he cut William's hair. "This act of masculine clumsiness was the spear through the side of her love for Morel."
She still tried to live her life through Morel. "If he sinned, she tortured him. If he drank, and lied, was often a poltroon, sometimes a knave, she wielded the lash unmercifully. ... She could not be content with the little he might be, she would have him the much that he ought to be."
Eventually, her need to live her life through others transferred to her children - especially to William and Paul; we don't see as much of Annie and Arthur.
So, when Walter goes out on his jaunt with Jerry Purdy at the end of chapter 1, the relationship between Walter and Gertrude is already set in stone. He has turned to his drinking companions for his need to be liked - she has turned to her children for her need to live her life through others.
Throughout their marriage, Walter is afraid to tell Gertrude the truth because it would cause her to dislike him. In the seventh month of their marriage, Getrude discovered that Walter had misled her about his financial situation. Because of this "her manner had changed towards him. Something in her proud, honorable soul had crystalised out hard as rock."
Gertrude, on the other hand, lives her life through others. "She had a curious, receptive mind, which found much pleasure and amusement in listening to other folk. ... So she always had people tell her about themselves, finding her pleasure so."
"[Gertrude] was a puritan, ... high-minded, and really stern." She did not drink or dance. In order to please her, Walter "signed the pledge, and wore the blue ribbon of a teetotaller". But it didn't stick. As she turned away from him, his desire to be liked took him to the public houses where he could be liked by his friends.
Walter enjoyed being with his first child, William. He "was very affectionate, indulgent and full of ingenuity to amuse the child, when it pleased him". Then came the incident when he cut William's hair. "This act of masculine clumsiness was the spear through the side of her love for Morel."
She still tried to live her life through Morel. "If he sinned, she tortured him. If he drank, and lied, was often a poltroon, sometimes a knave, she wielded the lash unmercifully. ... She could not be content with the little he might be, she would have him the much that he ought to be."
Eventually, her need to live her life through others transferred to her children - especially to William and Paul; we don't see as much of Annie and Arthur.
So, when Walter goes out on his jaunt with Jerry Purdy at the end of chapter 1, the relationship between Walter and Gertrude is already set in stone. He has turned to his drinking companions for his need to be liked - she has turned to her children for her need to live her life through others.