August 2008: D.H. Lawrence: Sons And Lovers

[Robert]

I think that Gertrude regardless of her reason, and at times we could debate the sincerity of her concern for her children, does cruel things. She does them to the girl from the dance and Miriam too. I believe she loves her kids, but I think her actions and "feelings" have less to do with her children and more to do with herself. I agree that she felt shorted by life, and feels that her children are supposed to "fix" it for a lack of better phrasing.

I don't think she's selfish if that's that you're saying. She hated her overbearing father and married Walter because he was different. Then she learned to hate Walter. I think she favors William because he's different then either of them.

 

[irishclover011]

I don't think she's selfish if that's that you're saying. She hated her overbearing father and married Walter because he was different. Then she learned to hate Walter. I think she favors William because he's different then either of them.

I am saying she is selfish. I don't blame her for wanted away from her father and Walter, but she is willing to sacrifice the feelings (even immature) for her own. She wants the best for her sons, but not as much as she wants the best for herself.

 

[Robert]

I think she's cold and inflexable because of the way she was raised. She stays with her husband for the sake of the kids.

What has she done that exhibits selfishness?

 

[Ronny]

I'm noticing that they all hate a lot, the term is used more in this book than any other I can recall reading. The only true joy, love, openness, they show is towards nature but in all of the relationships so far amongst the characters there is hate.

I do think Gertrude shows selfishness in her treatment of the boys' love interest, she not only is cruel to the girls, tries to drive them away but she and Walter's relationship has served as a bad example for the kids. I think they do not know how to be in a relationship without frustration, discontent and hate. There was a brief episode where Gertude seemed to be defending Lily (also a flower) to William that made me pause and reconsider my opinion but then she started in on Miriam. I can see being jealous and perhaps even a bit cool towards the girls but her treatment crossed the line to cruelty often unwarranted and that to me showed selfishness on her part. Also the fact that she begrudges her family every bit of care she gives seems selfish. She does with out but she tallies all they have and give.

 

[gonewiththewind]

I think what motivates Gertrude more than anything are anger and regret. She is angry her life did not turn out the way she hoped. She is angry at Walter for not being who she thought she married. She is angry at her kids for not reflecting what she wants them to be which is actually what she wanted for herself. She is angry at her neighbors for not being the sort she thought she deserves. All this anger is based on regret. Regret that her life did not turn out the way she wanted.

 

[Robert]

I think her only anger is directed at her father and at her husband. The reason Gertrude treats people the way she does is because she grew up in a religious middle class home.

What drives Gertrude is that she is unfulfilled in love.

 

[oskylad]

The reason Gertrude treats people the way she does is because she grew up in a religious middle class home.

If she had grown up in an irreligious but proud middle class home, would she have treated them any differently?

 

[oskylad]

The ministers or would be ministers in Gertrude's life seem to give her intellectual enjoyment, but not much in the way of character.

John Field in Chapter 1 became a teacher and married his landlady, a widow with property. All she got from him was a Bible.

Rev. Heaton in Chapter 2 was "very shy, and no preacher. ... His ideas were quaint and fantastic, ..." When faced with the reality of Morel, a working man, he wilted.

 

[oskylad]

In Chapter 2, Gertrude has a heavy feeling about her new-born infant. "'My lamb!' she cried, softly. At that moment she felt, in some far inner place of her soul, that she and her husband were guilty."

"A wave of hot love went over her to the infant. ... With all her force, with all her soul she would make up to it for having brought it into the world unloved. She would love it all the more now it was here, carry it in her love."

"She thrust the infant forward to the crimson, throbbing sun, almost with relief. ... Then she put him back to her bosom again, ashamed almost of her impulse to give him back again whence he came."

"'I will call him "Paul",' she said, suddenly, she knew not why."

I take this to be an allusion to the Apostle Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, where he says: "Get rid of the old yeast, that you may be a new batch without yeast-as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore, let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth."

Gertrude names her son after the apostle. She thinks of him as a sacrificial lamb, bearing the sins of the hatred between her and Walter. Like the sacrificial lamb, she offers her son back to God. Then, recognizing she must bear her sins on her own, she longs for a fresh start - free of the malice and wickedness she has experienced with her husband; filled with a relationship of love for her son founded on sincerity and truth.

 

[oskylad]

I'm noticing that they all hate a lot, the term is used more in this book than any other I can recall reading.

The only emotions the author seems able to describe are hate, love, anger, joy, and brooding. There is no grey. That is one reason I find the book disappointing.

 

[Robert]

If she had grown up in an irreligious but proud middle class home, would she have treated them any differently?

I believe so. Look at the way she looks down on people for dancing or for drinking.

 

[Libra]

The only emotions the author seems able to describe are hate, love, anger, joy, and brooding. There is no grey. That is one reason I find the book disappointing.

I like this book, it "feels"like a real story.

And all the flowers that are mentioned, is like the author tries to give a balance through all that negativity.

What has been annoying me is that Paul keeps saying how he hates

Miriam, but I think he says that because his mother doesn't aprove of her.

 

[silverseason]

I am now in Part 2, where chapters 7-9 form a unit related to the affair (or non affair) with Miriam: Lad-and-Girl Love, Strife in Love, and Defeat of Miriam.

The flowers are everywhere, especially in Chapter 7, and seem to be a signal of sensory experience, not just sex but all the joys of the senses. As an aspiring artist, Paul is very sensitive to light and color, and the text often reflects that also. Lawrence's language is particularly good when describing nature and the effects of light on trees or a hillside at night.

What does trouble me about the language is the repeated use of certain adjectives and adverbs, like cruelly, brutally, and especially, abstractly. Instead of showing us what cruel, brutal and abstract mean in action, he simply attributes these characteristics to the person or situation.

"they answered with brutality"
"abstract speeches"
"cruelly ashamed"
"the intimacy between them had been kept so abstract"
"always on a high plane of abstraction"
"their intimacy was so abstract"

The day to day interactions with Miriam are reported in almost "dear diary" detail with attraction alternating with "he hated her" because of some action or statement on her part. The picture of Paul in these chapters not a flattering one. He takes from others what they will give him in terms of attention and affection, while endlessly considering his own reactions, some of which seem rather extreme.

When Clara comes on the scene, the tone changes. For the first time Paul notices her breasts, the back of her neck, the way she moves. The most he could notice about Miriam were her eyes and that her blouse looked nice.

Is Lawrence setting up some sort of dichotomy here: the pure intellectual (and abstract) maiden versus the experienced woman with a good body?

 

[Ronny]

I like this book, it "feels"like a real story.

What has been annoying me is that Paul keeps saying how he hates

What does trouble me about the language is the repeated use of certain adjectives and adverbs, like cruelly, brutally, and especially, abstractly. Instead of showing us what cruel, brutal and abstract mean in action, he simply attributes these characteristics to the person or situation.

On a whole I like this book as well but I was surprised and somewhat put off by the repetitive language. This is my first D.H. Lawrence book and so I'm not sure if it is common in his works or just used as a device in this story but I don't like it, I did read somewhere this was his first major novel? As silverseason said there are many scenes where the feeling could be/or are played out and don't need to be labeled for us. For instance I can tell that Paul is being cruel to Miriam without being told he is acting cruelly. And as mentioned earlier I've never seen one word (hate and it's other forms) being used so much in a single book sometimes even on a single page. Since my book is an older copy and rather abused anyways I've been circling hate each time it's used and will count them up later. I will always remember this as the book of flowers and hate If the flowers symbolize so much, why the need to spell out the rest so plainly?

I am also at a bit of a loss in regards to Gertrude's and then Paul's feelings toward Miriam, I could not see exactly why they felt so strongly against her, at first I felt that Gertrude just was allowing her jealousy to run but then she seems to regret Paul not having someone of his own but she wishes he have anyone but her? While she seems a bit dreamy or romantic I can't see what was so very wrong with her to create such "hate" as they spew her way. I noticed as well that both Miriam and Gertrude at some point ponder Paul's bad moods/character flaws but that Miriam blames Gertrude and Gertrude blames Miriam for spoiling him. Can anyone help me shed some light on what was so wrong with Miriam?

But as far as drawing a person in and totally enmeshing them in a time and place, I think this book does a swell job and as Libra said it does have a real feel to it.

 

[gonewiththewind]

"Could anyone shed some light on what was so wrong with Mirium?"

Mirium lived in her head. That is where she kept all her love and passion. She just could not relate if it became physical. It occurred to me that Mirium would have made a good Nun in that her relationship would have been entirely cerebral with no physicality. I did not like Mirium very much. She never tried to figure out her feelings. No real self analysis. No attempt to understand Paul or his feelings. It seemed that just because she assumed something it should be that. Clara seemed more honest to me. More real

 

[Robert]

"Could anyone shed some light on what was so wrong with Mirium?"

Mirium lived in her head. That is where she kept all her love and passion. She just could not relate if it became physical. It occurred to me that Mirium would have made a good Nun in that her relationship would have been entirely cerebral with no physicality. I did not like Mirium very much. She never tried to figure out her feelings. No real self analysis. No attempt to understand Paul or his feelings. It seemed that just because she assumed something it should be that. Clara seemed more honest to me. More real

I think the only thing wrong with Mirium was Paul's relationship with his mother.

 

[Ronny]

Was Miriam the one that kept them from physical contact? It seemed to me that whenever she touched Paul he recoiled from her and started being cruel to her, she even said (spoiler can be safely read after finishing the Test Of Miriam)

Spoiler

eight years later when they finally do have sex something to that affect and she does submit to sex with him although at that point it seems too little too late, she does not enjoy the act itself but is willing to continue and hoping for marriage and children with him. I think after all that time involved with him she would expect it and it also seems that after 8 years doing your best to please your loved one even if it meant not touching them ever it would be hard to then switch to a very passionate sexual relationship.

 

[silverseason]

Both Paul and Miriam danced around the issue of a physical relationship - on again, off again, love, hate. Rather perplexing. When Paul looked at Clara he saw her beautiful arms and the swing of her breast as she bent over. When he looked at Miriam he saw her eyes trying to draw him in.

I think both Paul and Mrs. Morel saw Miriam as a person trying to take over Paul, to draw him in. So the struggle had more to do with control of Paul's being than with sex.

 

[Ronny]

I just finished and I must say I liked the first half of the book much more than the second half. At first I was very wrapped up in the story, even though none of the characters were particularly likable they certainly held my interest but as the book carried on and became more repetitive I lost that interest in the characters. There were some beautiful, well executed parts and then there were some muddled, disappointing parts so I really can not say yet whether I liked the book or not as a whole.

 

[Libra]

I think the only thing wrong with Mirium was Paul's relationship with his mother.

I agree, Gertrude has latched on Paul like a wife on a husband.
She is only more calm with Clara because he demanded it.

Paul is a phsychological mess.

He is trying to be there for his mother, because his father was not.