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Book Discussion- Gardens of the Moon

Gardens isn't incredible - that's the problem I think a lot of people have. It's decent, competent epic fantasy. But the next few books in the series are incredible . Consequently, a lot of people are dissapointed by GotM, as they assume it will be amazing. There's a general consensus that Deadhouse Gates is a huge improvement on Gardens of the Moon (there's an 8 year gap between the writing of the two novels)

His writing is a little strange - it did seem like he incorporated lots of modern mannerisms into his characters dialogues, which was just weird

I think that's intentional, and it has mixed success. For example, I don't like his overuse of the word "uh..", but I think the military dialogue tends to be pretty authentic. He was trying to create something different to

Here's something more substantial: Besides Quick Ben, nobody in the Bridgeburners were properly fleshed out... too many things happening. And as for Paran... what was that all about?

Quick Ben was pretty simplistic in Gardens of the Moon IMO. He really comes into his own in Memories of Ice. I think that characterisation is perhaps Erikson's weakest aspect initially, but it's because the world has to be established, and there just isn't enough room to do tons of character development and worldbuilding. He does have much more fleshing out of characters in the later books. It's quite difficult to think of how much was done in just Gardens, but iirc, there wasn't too much there. Most of the Bridgeburners develop quite a bit as it goes on. Whiskeyjack's history is hinted at throughout and continues to develop, there's quite a bit of attention on Kalam and Fiddler, Paran's very important - there's more on him later, but it's probably best to be a bit confused about him at the moment, the other Bridgeburners don't have a huge amount of depth to them (at least the ones you've seen so far), and they all have an element of the grotesque to them, but I don't think it's feasible for Erikson to do in-depth characterisation for over three hundred characters (roughly).

The important thing to remember is Gardens of the Moon is an introduction. It's not entirely representative of his style, and it allows the later books to be much better. (Gardens of the Moon I think's an enjoyable read, but not great fantasy. Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice are two of the best installments of epic fantasy ever written.)

Not the 'Oh my goodness that was bloody good!' effect

If you'd got that from Gardens of the Moon, you'd have been more impressed than me by it, and I'm a pretty big fan of Erikson. I think in the later books, Erikson manages to surpass Martin, just, but Gardens is definitely the weakest, and I wouldn't be surprised if you did get that effect from the next two. Still, I don't want to get your hopes up too much, and then be disappointed - Deadhouse Gates starts off a bit slow, but slightly better and slightly more imaginative (though the almost entirely new cast puts some people off), but it's much more tightly written and it's much more focused - allowing for some proper character development and some really moving scenes. If there's one flaw above all I find with Gardens of the Moon, it's that it isn't very powerful (emotionally). The ending's too deus ex machina style, it's too weak, mildly anti-climactic. That isn't the case in any of the other books, which have incredibly powerful endings.
 
Brys said:
Quick Ben was pretty simplistic in Gardens of the Moon IMO. He really comes into his own in Memories of Ice.
For me Quick Ben in GoTM has a full name, a previous station, a hinting of his abilities. And for me to characterize him as the only one having been fleshed out with just these 3 things must say a lot about GoTM's character development.

I think that characterisation is perhaps Erikson's weakest aspect initially, but it's because the world has to be established, and there just isn't enough room to do tons of character development and worldbuilding. He does have much more fleshing out of characters in the later books.
That's usually the case, and I was disappointed that GoTM wasn't stronger. Huge cast in first books of epic fantasies usually suffer from that, but I have to point out it didn't happen to GRRM. I'd have happily accepted that first books are usually less strong because of the lack of space if I hadn't experienced GRRM. He has spoilt me somewhat...

...Paran's very important - there's more on him later, but it's probably best to be a bit confused about him at the moment, ...
Paran was one of the worst developed, IMHO. He was so interesting in the beginning, but suddenly (probably Oponn's influence on Erikson!) he did an about turn in his direction in life. That change was jarring, and less than convincingly done. Whiskeyjack, at present, has the personality and predictability of a cardboard.

I did like Kruppe, and recognized in the beginning that he's actually not irritating, but quite interesting. There's probably nothing so pleasant as a powerful and intelligent but self-decrecating, sunny and good-natured character (boy was that a clumsy sentence).

The important thing to remember is Gardens of the Moon is an introduction. It's not entirely representative of his style, and it allows the later books to be much better. (Gardens of the Moon I think's an enjoyable read, but not great fantasy. Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice are two of the best installments of epic fantasy ever written.)
...but it's much more tightly written and it's much more focused - allowing for some proper character development and some really moving scenes. ...That isn't the case in any of the other books, which have incredibly powerful endings.

Alllllready then, you've convinced me (now you see how easily I can be influenced). I will give Deadhouse Gates a try. The complete change of cast members do not bother me (it may in fact, help!). I will miss Quick Ben, though.

ds

p.s. I'm still bothered that an incredibly powerful Ascendant 'lounges' in someone's chair. I mean, that is just *not* the picture of an all-powerful warrior, is it?
 
I think the key difference though between GRRM and Erikson is that Erikson is writing on a far larger scale. Martin has maybe 1/4 of the cast of Erikson, if that, and even in his novels, there isn't always great characterisation (yes the Lannisters, Littlefinger and a few others are very well developed, but there aren't that many). And it's a natural result of the style Martin employs - having chapters from the viewpoints of characters means that the characterisation will immediately be stronger and more obvious. I don't think Erikson's characterisation ever quite matches Martin's, but it comes very close as the series progresses.

that is just *not* the picture of an all-powerful warrior, is it?

Well, I thought that worked pretty well - it's supposed to be the lazy, arrogant attitude of Anomander. It's also a reference to the inspiration for Anomander Rake (Elric).

I will miss Quick Ben, though.

He's back in the series soon enough. To me, Seven Cities is a much more interesting fantasy setting than Genabackis.
 
Brys said:
...Martin has maybe 1/4 of the cast of Erikson, if that, and even in his novels, there isn't always great characterisation (yes the Lannisters, Littlefinger and a few others are very well developed, but there aren't that many).
Hmm... comparing only the first book from each author's series, I'm not sure I agree with you on the number of characters. If anything, I think GRRM introduced more characters in AGoT that Erikson did in GoTM. True, not everyone introduced were given their chapter perspectives, but I'd doubt anyone would say Tywin Lannister wasn't developed as a character although he doesn't have a Tywin chapter.

But you're probably right as far as the Malazan series is concerned - Erikson probably has more characters than ASoIaF in the long run. I will have to read further to find out.

I will read Deadhouse Gates and give you my impressions when I'm done with it. (Not soon though - more than a couple of book are awaiting their turn :))

Thanks for chit chatting about the book with me, Brys... any other stuff you like that you'd want to recommend?

ds
 
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