Books and Intelligence

[Renee]

By golly - I've read The Chronicles of Narnia. I wonder if that means my level of intelligence has drastically declined over the years. Perhaps I better give up on reading The Three Musketeers. Oh no, that's right. The Three Musketeers is actually a story for young adults, which probably translates, by modern standards to mean "teens". I might as well give up reading now, for surely by next week I won't even be able to grasp the meaning of Dick and Jane.

I find, suddenly, that I miss being intelligent. Had I never read this thread I would have never known the difference.

 

[Ice]

I just stumbled upon this thread today, and read if from the beginning... which seems to start in the middle of a shitflinging contest. Were the opening posts on this thread removed, because, if not, I see nothing insulting within Jay's posts, besides his trademark bits of sarcasm.

None were deleted. This topic was split from the Currently reading thread when it strayed too far off topic. Jay quoted a post from a completely separate thread in his first reply, hence this thread starting where it did (Usagi's comments came from the I just finished reading thread as oppose to the currently reading thread). I did not expect the comment which prompted the original discussion to come from a completely different thread, thus this was the reason I could not find that quote in the thread when it was originally split. When I get a moment I will split the I just finished reading thread and merge the relevant comments into here.

 

[sanyuja]

Can I just go on record as saying I am interested in jay's posts? In fact when I first came across him on the board (in relation to Patrick Suskind's Perfume: I liked it, he didn't), I went through all his posts as I thought he had interesting things to say.

I want to add something here. I had a discussion with jay on _The Namesake_ and I think he had very good points to make. He was the one who pointed me to _The cloak_, which was a great story.

Please do not pass a general comment saying that no one's interested in his posts. I _am_, genuinely. If you read his previous posts, you will realise that he has good points to make about any book.

No, I am _not_ a friend of jay, either.

 

[Stewart]

I don't really see why adults should be embarrassed if they are improving their vocabulary by reading Harry Potter. Just because it is written for children does not mean than all the words they use are childish. Maybe this adult had trouble with reading when they were younger or they were not privelaged enough to be able to go to school.

We're not playing games of maybe. You're turning a mass audience into one person. We're talking the masses.

Also, just to be a prick, it's privileged.

 

[jay]

Oi. I see we have a new home. Time permitting, I’ll get to what I can in order (without reading ahead, so sorry if someone else covers something)

I apologise - I was at work and thus had limited time to post. I do agree that what one **chooses** to read _does_ have some factors on brain usage, however this is not a measure of an individuals intelligence. People may often choose to read a book that is deemed an easy read for many reasons. Does this mean they can not or are unable to read a more challenging book? Of course it does not. I guess it depends on how one defines intelligence.

I agree. Which then also has me very much not liking the title assigned to this thread which is assigned to _me_ as the starter. Not cool. I think my original (well, only) suggestion is very, very appropriate. If Admin needs another: “Harry Potter: Good or Bad for Literacy?”
Anyway. Of course one can bounce around the spectrum of reading levels. As I’ve said countless times, and as the little window indicating ‘currently reading’ suggests, I am *hardly* reading Joyce-like mind-trickers ever day. If anything I think I am one of the few that is attempting a broad range of reading. And while I continually shun 98% of contemporary works: I look into them. None of my opinions are uninformed.

One of the essential myths to the Potter phenomenon is that this is creating more “readers”. This is proven nonsense (with past phenomenons like Tolkien and King, et al) [As I’ve also repeatedly said, there are always exceptions to the rule] and the simple fact, and CNN finally started to hint at this in their newest Potter report: this is hampering if not crucifying the publishing industry.

“Intelligence” is a tricky subject (and listen to any current press conference pertaining to headline News for more tainting of the word). My personal opinion is that the “test” devised to “score” “intelligence”, the IQ test, is hardly and indicator of much.
Potter is not a stepping stone to further reading. The abysmal sale in OTHER children’s books shows this. It’s –very simply- a PRODUCT that is pimped to the masses and in nothing more than a gateway to movies, videogames, toys and I’m sure (if not already?) television.

You can read for either escapist pleasure of to be stimulated intellectually. Either one of these is a valid reason. It has nothing to do with intelligence. There are some very intelligent people on this forum ( ice is one of them ) who like to read escapist books. It's really not a good indication of one's brain power or anything else.

I assure you, I don’t read (or try to read) a Nick Hornby to be “stimulated”, I tried him to see what the noise is about.
I’ve said elsewhere, and pretty much above, I too have my light reading reads. However, I wasn’t waiting outside the bookstore the day Elmore Leonard’s new novel came out. (Needless to say CNN didn’t report that, nor was the store open at midnight). I haven’t yet read it, but did buy it when it came out, as this time period is CRITICAL for writers (and I’m betting a paycheck that 97% of people that bought Potter one Day One have no sodding clue about release dates to any of their “favourite authours” and do NOT buy the book within the, again, critical time point of a few weeks.

I still stand by my original statement that what one decides to read, even if for enjoyment, has to do with the brain. Most especially when one feels this need to read (or “read”) it right away - so afraid to not be a part of something.
And the blindingly curious thing about that is there is no conversation about it. If one were rushing through something so that it could be *discussed*, I’d slightly see a point, but the most insightful things written (that I’ve seen, so far) is “it’s the best of the series!!!”
The underlying score of that is that all these manic “fans” *already* loved the godamn book even before it came out. In some circles (used in a lot of music references) this is what is referred to, and self-assigned, as a “true fan”. Which rules out all objectively. No matter what, in this case JKR wrote: it’s “loved” and “amazing” and ‘whatever’.

jay, what book did you offer free copies of last week?? Are they still on offer?

_We Need To Talk About Kevin_ by Lionel Shiver. I’ll try to find my original post (finished reading) and PM it to you. And [eyeing bank account], sure, if your’ interested I’ll send you a copy.

Intelligence is, after all (if you agree with the scientific way of measuring intelligence) a measure of your ability to reason /not/ how much stuff you know or how much stuff you are able to retain.

I don’t want to really merge too far off, especially when it was a loosely used word in the first place, and I certainly don’t want to make it out like a continually battle between yourself and I, but your definition is not scientific nor dictionary-esque.

MY usage of the term was just ruling out the “age” thing. As I know plenty of “adults” that probably can’t comprehend a Potter novel and I would think and hope there are some groups of “children” that have already progressed past the mental adolescence of Potter-like books.

Clearly from the rules, personal attacks are not to be tolderated and that those who feel they may have a compelling instance of being insulted cannot be presumed to just live with it or hash it out with the other party.

I do have to blanch at the irony of the subject being discussed (basically age and intelligence) and then your insinuating that one can *not* try to work things out for themselves but run to admin (or mommy) when feeling “insulted”????

Shade, I completely understand your desire to protect your friend

Please refrain from thinking the one or two people here that have actually said they are not “insulted” by me are my “friends”. No offense to them, of course, but their words and actions are based solely on their feelings. I’d guess.

it's quite another to ruminate about others lack of intelligence, comprension, reading, and status as an adult.

Not really. And as covered before. If one is going to be “insulted” by it, this really says more about the offendee than the supposed offender.

I’ve now publicly stated I read Spider-Man comics. Anyone feeling to bust on that may do so. Am I going to get “offended”? Surely not. And can I ‘defend’ myself, the quality of (some) of the books, state why I read them and critique them with open mind?
You bet your ass.
Or maybe I’d just follow your advice and run to mommy. [insert smiley with loaded gun to its head]

People on this board are incapable of reading,[sic] hardly a compliment here-

This is simply factual, at times, and defiantly in the case you quoted.
Sorry, maybe you don’t mind being outright misquoted and misinterpreted. Repeatedly.
I do.
And that was “comprehending”, not “reading”. (ohhhh, the irony)

So in summary Shade, I contend that the rules are very specific about this and that those who have complained about your friend are hardly delusional or simply easily offended. I also believe that the quotes that I have provided clearly show that contrary to Jay's last quoted comment, he has gotten personal.

SFG, in summery all I see is you stepping all over yourself more than proving *any* kind of point. Other than my own.

As I have laid on the table, my “friend”, I offered publicly to Admin (and to the board) that I would “resign from this board” (post number 12 in this thread) if this was the desire.
Feel free to start a poll.

Ok, enough for now, I’m not up for re-read so sorry for the handful (or two) of mistakes.
j

 

[jay]

Maybe the distinction here is not intelligence per se, but you aren't going to improve your vocabulary, as an adult, with Harry Potter (and if you do, be embarrassed) but having an improved vocabulary will certainly show that you are capable of intelligent thinking and can construct valid criticism and/or praise, especially far beyond u gotta read this book, its grate.

While I get where you’re coming from, indeed not everyone reads to broaden the brain-case. It *is* a form of entertainment. One may not watch Justin Timberlake videos in hopes to emulate his moves, and I’d guess the masses attending yet another Spielberg bore-fest aren’t actually even aware of what a “director” does.
“intelligence” –for lack of a better word- *does play a role, to a certain degree. Even though we all need to ‘take off’ out thinking caps from time to time, I honestly can’t ever picture myself, even under forced conditions, being even vaguely entertained by nearly anything Hollywood has to offer. Or television.
But back to intel (and “death of literacy” seems to be the better title here is DVCode maintains a theme), the mere fact that museums in France had to put up specific signs and create specific tours for the hordes that read (remember, that’s different than comprehending!) this book, because they believed it’s factual, is, sorry, a sign of intelligence. Or lack of a sign.
Better yet, people think the signs are actually a cover-up…

Anyway.

Some of his other comments may resulted in people feeling insulted. But just as in life there is no right not to be offended, so on this board there's no rule against feeling insulted: attacked, yes, but not insulted. People can feel insulted by all sorts of things, reasonable or not.

Hell, that’s written far better than I ever tried to get it down.
Maybe I should put you on the payroll to ‘defend’ me.

Were the opening posts on this thread removed, because, if not,…

Traces of it may still be left behind in the ‘currently reading’ thread.

I must say I do occasionally pick up a Harry Wanker and the Vagina Code type book every once in a while, but take in the pages purely as entertainment.

Oi. But yes, picking them up occasionally –we all need ‘beach reading’- or out of curiosity as to ‘what the hell is this ink on pressed dead-tree craze’ is *entirely* different than running out to buy it right away as if indeed the Martians were attacking. (surely I will an extra admission fee to the gates of hell for two Cruise/Spielberg references in one day).

First off, I don't really see why adults should be embarrassed if they are improving their vocabulary by reading Harry Potter. Just because it is written for children does not mean than all the words they use are childish. Maybe this adult had trouble with reading when they were younger or they were not privelaged enough to be able to go to school. Would you really ridicule someone for trying to improve their education in any way they can?

I agree with your statement, and I would hope it’s obvious I’m not out to assault someone trying to LEARN something. Needless to say I have not seen any posts from anyone taking this position.
Keep in mind that this ridiculous fade is also translated in nearly every damn language. So some “adults” learning a new language may decide that, in the case of German, Kafka in the original language is still a bit too difficult, so maybe they’ll first read that countries “Dick & Jane” equivalent and then move onto Potter.
(Although in that situation the Grimm Fairy Tales would be much wiser.)

Saying a book is great and recommending people read it is perfectly valid IMO, as it is showing their attitude towards a certain book, which is what I thought the main point of this forum is.

But why not tell people WHY it’s “great”?
_Lolita_, for example, may be “great” for any number of reasons. One may think its “great” because Nabokov is just flat-out an amazing technician with words (and not even in his own native language) and style another may think it’s “great” because that little vixen Lolita is “hot!”
Love my posts (as a “friend”, mind you) or detest me like a sickness. I do try to give a bit of insight as to not only why I like a certain book, but also why I adamantly dislike it.
Which is what *I* thought was the main point of a forum based on books.

It was his previous posts not posted in this thread in which I had the problems.

For the record I had nothing to do with the thread-change. I mentioned it as a suggestion but have no power to do it myself. So any post missing is not my trying to cover my buns from imaginary accusations.

I respect your views Shade, thanks for the kind reply. You exemplified the true nature of debate and at the same time, mutual respect in your reply. I only wish that it was more universal on this board.

As I simply have to assume you are once again (trying to) comment on me.
Sorry
1) debate is a rare thing indeed around here
2) “respect” is earned, not given away.

As for the topic-Yes, I would be concerned about a person who only enjoys children's lit.

Which a fraction of these people do.

At the same time, I would be very concerned about someone who only read serious high-brow stuff.

Hmmmm.

By golly - I've read The Chronicles of Narnia. I wonder if that means my level of intelligence has drastically declined over the years. Perhaps I better give up on reading The Three Musketeers. Oh no, that's right. The Three Musketeers is actually a story for young adults, which probably translates, by modern standards to mean "teens". I might as well give up reading now, for surely by next week I won't even be able to grasp the meaning of Dick and Jane.
I find, suddenly, that I miss being intelligent. Had I never read this thread I would have never known the difference.

Congratulations, you seem to miss…ohhhhhhhh, only the ENTIRE theme of the conversation.
SFG, this a “friend” of yours?

None were deleted. This topic was split from the Currently reading thread when it strayed too far off topic. Jay quoted a post from a completely separate thread in his first reply, hence this thread starting where it did (Usagi's comments came from the I just finished reading thread as oppose to the currently reading thread). I did not expect the comment which prompted the original discussion to come from a completely different thread, thus this was the reason I could not find that quote in the thread when it was originally split. When I get a moment I will split the I just finished reading thread and merge the relevant comments into here.

Now *I’m* confused!
Did I misapply a quote? Damn, sorry. I almost never post to “currently reading” as I think the idea of a thread just mentioning book titles is redundant to the extreme. But then again most of the posts on the ‘just finished reading’ thread is the same format…

No, I am _not_ a friend of jay, either.

[gutted] the one person who I was hoping *was* my friend!

Again, not re-reading. So sorry for the typos.
j

 

[SFG75]

I do have to blanch at the irony of the subject being discussed (basically age and intelligence) and then your insinuating that one can *not* try to work things out for themselves but run to admin (or mommy) when feeling “insulted”????

As I see it, the mistake on your part is believing that this is some kind of self-moderated forum where things are allowed to "shake out" with a lack of clear and distinct rules regarding behavior. Your "mommy" example has little relevance to rule 3.1 and why people have called you out and why the moderators have an issue with you and not other forum members.

Please refrain from thinking the one or two people here that have actually said they are not “insulted” by me are my “friends”. No offense to them, of course, but their words and actions are based solely on their feelings. I’d guess.

Fair enough, but as stated earlier, their "feelings" do not negate the posted rules of this board.

Or maybe I’d just follow your advice and run to mommy. [insert smiley with loaded gun to its head]

By all means, feel free to quote the actual line in 3.1 where it is stated that people are to work things out on their own and that personal attacks are merely the figment of people's imagination.

 

[jay]

As I see it, the mistake on your part is believing that this is some kind of self-moderated forum

My addressing admin as “admin” completely rules your assumption out.
My *correctness* in bloody well knowing I have not done anything wrong, hence my offer to leave if that is what is desired.
If I *mistakenly* knew I did something wrong, then I would have also offered Admin to terminate my account if they wished to do so.

where things are allowed to "shake out" with a lack of clear and distinct rules regarding behavior.

Generally, as a society of any kind, I think we can pretty much work things out amongst ourselves. To a certain degree of course.

Your "mommy" example has little relevance to rule 3.1 and why people have called you out and why the moderators have an issue with you and not other forum members.

That was your example. I put into easier to digest words for you.
I’m lost on your “calling you out” phraseology. People may have called out “mommy” or made up some pretty non-linear assumptions, but I can’t say I feel I’ve been “called out”.
And I think you’re going a bit rich with moderators “having an issue” with me.
Two of them are even involved in the thread.

Fair enough, but as stated earlier, their "feelings" do not negate the posted rules of this board.

Nor does my very clearly staying within the lines of the rules.
You’re just all hot and bothers a few people didn’t talk crap about me…

By all means, feel free to quote the actual line in 3.1 where it is stated that people are to work things out on their own and that personal attacks are merely the figment of people's imagination.

Sorry, Johnny Grisham books aren’t for me. I think we’re doing pretty fine here without having to quote a set of “rules”. I have my own brain and vocabulary I can rely on. Mommy not need here. Nap time not yet.

You like a fundamental state? That’s cool. Keep it away from us.

With every word you right I stand firmer and firmer (not to mention corrector and corrector) by what I say.
You’re insulted: that’s your deal. You set your own traps.
(You just read Gore Vidal and cant come up with something better than this???

However, if I were to start “attacking” (a word from your beloved rules) then I expect I’d be breaking some rules.
Until then the only thing I see being attacked here is Logic. But she aint an official list member, so it’s looks like you’re in the clear and Admin wont “have an issue” with you.
j

 

[Renee]

Congratulations, you seem to miss…ohhhhhhhh, only the ENTIRE theme of the conversation.
SFG, this a “friend” of yours?

Congratulations yourself. I well understand the nature of the discussion, which began with you making unflattering remarks in regards to people reading Harry Potter.

I expressed an opinion, much as you did, though I chose not to attack you or be insulting about it. If you miss the meaning of my post then perhaps your reading comprehension and intelligence is not quite what you seem to present it as being.

I have no interest in taking up serious debate with someone that spends so much time trying to provoke and inflame others; these are the tools of someone who is not as confident as they would like to appear, or too egocentric to accept anything but their own ideas as having any validity.



It would seem some people equate verbal attacks, insults, provoking and inflaming others to be a sign of intelligence - this of based on the way certain people present themselves and conduct themselves.

 

[Stewart]

It would seem some people equate verbal attacks, insults, provoking and inflaming others to be a sign of intelligence - this of based on the way certain people present themselves and conduct themselves.

I would disagree. Some people are just defensive and lash out with their comments which - typically - make little sense and show little forethought. People like jay are happy to defend themselves - especially when all the others who are defensive gather to deliver their brand of community justice.

 

[SFG75]

It is my opinion that you were hardly within the lines with these comments:

A detective you will not make. I assure you. Maybe not even a reader.

certainly can’t even read my posts properly and want to dispense “advice”?

but if you’re just going to whine and throws your toys out of the crib, simply don’t read my posts

Most everyone else seems on the defence because they can’t form thought

didn’t “tell”. I asked.
Read and re-read before you try to analyze where I’m coming from.

I was under the impression you had nothing to say even before this.

Please stop reading my posts until you can come up with something even vaguely coherent.

The personal attacks rule isn't MY rule, it's the boards. There is a big difference there-good job of trying to attribute it to me. Yes, people here might think you bring a good perspective to various threads, and I'm certain that you do. At the same time, that has zero relevance in relation to how others should be treated on this board and your general disregard in slinging personal shots at people in the place of well-reasoned argument. You should owe up to these statements that you've made and stop trying to wiggle your way out of taking ownership of them through excuses, pleas for context, and equating a simple rule for respect as living in a "fundamental state."

 

[Stewart]

The personal attacks rule isn't MY rule, it's the boards.

By the way, a personal attack is something along the lines of you fucking faggot, fuckface, bastard, you so fucking thick. What you are calling an attack is a gentle dig.

 

[jay]

I expressed an opinion, much as you did, though I chose not to attack you or be insulting about it. If you miss the meaning of my post then perhaps your reading comprehension and intelligence is not quite what you seem to present it as being.

Ohhhhh believe me, I knew what you were *trying* to achieve in your post. I was just giving you a blatant indication that your _attempt_ at irony was well beyond way-off the mark.
Don’t trip on the double-entendres…

Maybe if you (not necessarily you-you, but still) started trying a little offense you’d be a bit less defensive.
Granted it’s not a game but let’s not continue on trying to make excuses for me.
Worry about thyself.
Stop trying to figure me out.

We’re on a discussion forum, you toss fungos: I’m going to park them. You come with solid thought: we got ourselves a conversation.
And it damn well could be interesting!

j
who logged far too much ‘net time today…and will now go jump in the lake.

 

[SFG75]

By the way, a personal attack is something along the lines of you fucking faggot, fuckface, bastard, you so fucking thick. What you are calling an attack is a gentle dig.

A personal attack doesn't relate to what a person posts, it relates to the poster. It is also negative in character relating to that person. Jay's posts more than meet both qualifications with flying colors.

 

[Stewart]

A personal attack doesn't relate to what a person posts, it relates to the poster. It is also negative in character relating to that person. Jay's posts more than meet both qualifications with flying colors.

In your opinion. In my opinion you are too sensitive.

 

[SFG75]

In your opinion. In my opinion you are too sensitive.

Tell me, how is the following not a personal attack?

I was under the impression you had nothing to say even before this.

 

[jay]

The personal attacks rule isn't MY rule, it's the boards.

Ah, changing it to “attack” now instead of “insults”? Well, you’re learning.

Anyway, I dearly appreciate the time you’re putting forth in all this cut and paste; however, I fail to see anything that could be cited as an “attack” in there.
And as I said, neither, apparently, has admin.

One _may_ also note that many of those were retorts to what are (or could be) more noted as “personal attacks”. Not that two wrongs make a right, but try reprimanding these others while you’re trying to play oh-so by the book.
Sorry to discourage you that some of us can and will stand up for ourselves.

You should owe up to these statements that you've made and stop trying to wiggle your way out of taking ownership of them through excuses, pleas for context, and equating a simple rule for respect as living in a "fundamental state."

Hmmm, didn’t I just tell you I stand by everything (this, by the by, means e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g) I have written and stand firmer and firmer with ever post?
[pause for you to go re-read]
So please, only the daft will actually salute you as making _any_ cohesive sense, so what is your end-goal? There are *no* ruby slippers to be won from dropping the house on your little personal little wicked witch, so really, without being “insulting” and certainly not “attacking” you, dear SFG, just don’t read my posts if you don’t like them, can’t comprehend them and can’t counter them if you disagree.

Indeed the damn thread title *is* accurate…
Ciao.

 

[Stewart]

Indeed the damn thread title *is* accurate…

Better be careful with that personal attack.

FFS! Attack is too strong a word. Jibe is more appropriate.

 

[jay]

Tell me, how is the following not a personal attack?

Better yet, why don’t you wax poetic on how it *is* an "attack"?
My “impression” could very well be wrong…

You’ve dug yourself a deep enough hole today, methinks.
And really, you seem to think my “friends” had no right ‘defending’ (I think that was the word, but I’m too tired to look it up…maybe it was ‘stick up for’) me but your endless quest to speak up for others, others that _did_ make “personal attacks” is really quite…befuddling.
As I stated SFG, start a poll, I’ll jump ship if people want me to leave. If it’s just simply you and a few of your underlings well, them’s the breaks.

Or just take it up with bloody admin. As they (Wabbit) themselves have suggested.

Again, I’m trying for the door…
j

 

[Stewart]

I think the victim is one of those people who can't read a sentence without a smilie on the end.