Books and Intelligence

[Stewart]

I don't think SFG75 is interested in your thoughts. He wrote Jay 3 times in bold.

I'm not interested in SFG75's either...at least until the next thread which is treated on its own merits. Regarding the bold lettering; only twice were they addressing jay...

 

[SFG75]

LOL-it's all good clueless. The NYT has lost some of it's luster, no doubt about it. At the same time, it isn't the N.Y. Post. I just posted the article as the NYT does have a reputation as being one of the better papers in the U.S. and they happened to do a Potter review. I know Jay is a huge Potter fan and is currently reading the newest book.







(Warning: The comments above are an attempt, no matter how pathetic, at humor.)

 

[jay]

I should perhaps refrain from mentioning this, since Jay will undoubtedly find more "fire in the belly" so to speak after reading this link.

“Undoubtedly”?

I'm sure Jay would be interested to learn that according to the reviewer:

Don’t be so sure. Are you actually surprised HP got a good review?
I’d have to think the person that chose to write one would certainly be hard-up for work in the aftermath.
Reviews can be kinda political.
I’ve recently read an interview with a writer and she was asked what she was currently reading. She named a few things and had cited one title by saying, “only got through it because I had to review it. Bloody awful.”
Which to me is a pretty precise review. But of course this will not be what she submits to the editor.

So Jay, what do you think of the NYT review?

Rather bland, predictable, while adding a few different names and other children’s books to those I’ve previously mentioned.
The reviewer *could* have chosen to say that children are NOT flocking to those titles after enjoying the reading experience with HP. They just read the HP books “many times”.

I don't think SFG75 is interested in your thoughts. He wrote Jay 3 times in bold. I thought the hunting season did not start until the autumn but this law might not apply to witches.

I think this is very unfair. While my name was for some reason in bold this *is* a public board. “Intelligence” surely isn’t getting in the way of some people commenting, as it shouldn’t (although self-restraint and self-knowledge *are* nice characteristics), so nothing else should.
If SFG wanted a sole thought he could have PM’d me.
This isn’t a thread where I am to feel like “The Hunger Artist” on public display…I think…

In closing, I can’t say I’d ever expect to see a truly bad (or “bad”) review of HP. Certainly not in the NYT.
And it may not deserve one.
The phenomenon and the propaganda are pretty separate from the book.

The only writer I’ve publicly seen to heavily criticize _The da Vinci Code_ has been Craig Clevenger. The after-effect is generally one of people agreeing or the masses saying –as I’ve been accused of, even with never having stated I wish to publish any writing, or even that I write (seriously)- “he’s just jealous”.

Harold Bloom has been one of the only people to publicly lambaste Stephen King and the Potter Phenomenon. While I agree with him 100%, I’ve heard and read he’s just called “an old crank”.
All in all I never read reviews. Or even dust-jacket blurbs/summaries.
j

 

[Shade]

The NY Times is the only positive review I've seen of HP6 (by an adult), though I'm sure there are others. On one discussion thread I witnessed, the criticism of the book was unanimous.

 

[clueless]

I often have a problem to make myself understood. No wonder, given that English is my 4th or 5th language. See if bullet points help:

• I did not try to restrain anyone from speaking
• I just pointed that SFG75 was only interested in Jay's opinion. I think he made it pretty obvious
• It seems Jay is everybody's favourite target (witch hunt?)

 

[jay]

At the same time, it isn't the N.Y. Post.

Oi. Hopefully not…

I just posted the article as the NYT does have a reputation as being one of the better papers in the U.S. and they happened to do a Potter review.

Time permitting, NYT, Washington Post and WSJ are the 3 US thingies I try to check out. Combine this with the few Euro and UK thingies, along with board…it’s no wonder I’m behind on my work and have continual migraines (I jest).

I’m not surprised *at all* that anyone does a HP review, and I see no real problem with it. It *is* one of the best selling books of all gawdamn time. I’d even think Playboy gives it a write-up. Who knows, maybe they’re paid for …it’s not unheard of.

I *would* question is these papers/periodicals are giving equal time to other children’s books.
I’d question it, but I know the answer…

I know Jay is a huge Potter fan and is currently reading the newest book.

Yes, because the mind is a terrible thing to waste.

(Warning: The comments above are an attempt, no matter how pathetic, at humor.)

We appreciate it; it’s been a looooong week.
(and with the political binge you’re on, gawd you *do* need some humour)

The NY Times is the only positive review I've seen of HP6 (by an adult), though I'm sure there are others. On one discussion thread I witnessed, the criticism of the book was unanimous.

Interesting. I’ll take a look in a bit.

I often have a problem to make myself understood.

I sometimes feel that way about myself, which I why I get heavy with the font.

Sorry if my response seemed bitter, Stewart just happened to be at the computer before me, so he got in there first. There may and will be times work submerges me but I will always try to address anything personally addressed to me.
j
(sorry I don’t catch all comments at one time, I generally drag stuff into Word and work from there and usually not all in one sitting)

 

[Stewart]

Because Rowling's gift is not so much for language as for characterization and plotting, to reveal much of what happens would wreck the experience for future readers. Suffice it to say that this new volume culminates in a finish so scorchingly distressing that the reader closes the book quaking, knowing that out of these ashes, somehow, the phoenix of Rowling's fiction will rise again - but worrying about how on earth Harry will cope until it does.

That bit from the NYT review seems like a complete cop-out to me. The reviewer talks about the series of books and this bit is the core of the review sandwiched by waffle.

 

[clueless]

That bit from the NYT review seems like a complete cop-out to me. The reviewer talks about the series of books and this bit is the core of the review sandwiched by waffle.

And the core is not very good either, is it?

Rowling can't write; if you read the books, do it for the characters and to see what happens. Unfortunately, I cannot comment on the plot because I would spoil it for you. I can only tell you it is very sad, but wait for the next book.

Is that what it means?

 

[Stewart]

Nothing wrong with giving examples of why her writing isn't up to scratch but then counter that with quotes showing her ability to characterise people. A few lines of the book, here and there, aren't going to hurt the book or give away the plot - a character's reaction to something (when read out of context) could provoke (genuine) interest.

 

[Renee]

Feel free to fill us in on what you *were* attempting then…

Based on your own comments regarding intelligence, you should be able to understand my comments without me having to explain them to you.

No, dear Renee. You made and accusation (or moreso a statement) that I’m trying to goad you.
You (that would be you-you) made no reference(s).
I like a good mystery, but not baseless and unfounded statements only to then be whined over and accordingly off-topic.

I've made a simple deduction based on your own conduct. In addressing me, you have not once addressed my comments based on the issue at hand.

Anyone who would presume to tell others that they are of a lower intelligence based on what they read should not need me to explain the context of my posts. I will give you that one might need to ponder a bit to resolve to understand my first post, but I clear state my point in the others. Either you ignore the point or you lack the intelligence to understand somehow. Again, and I'm spelling it out for you as well as I feed need be, your comments about the intelligence level of readers of Harry Potter would imply that you are far more intelligent and would need little aid to understand the writing of others. If you do not understand my points then that is simply a indication that you are not nearly so intelligent as you like to present yourself as being.

Feel free to have at me again, I know that you only endeavor to disguise your ineptitude, but it will never once gain you the end result that you seem to deem inevitable. Just one more wrong assumption on your part. This "dear" is all the difference between someone confident in their intelligence and someone who only pretends. Your every reply [to me] makes my case for me.

 

[jay]

Nice to see some honest and thought out opinions there.
Sad to see someone admit that they’re simply continuing with the series “out of habit”.
I just don’t understand this concept. If something is waning in interest finishing it just to be a ‘complete’ist’ is beyond me. But I guess most people don’t like the odd looks one gets when, for example I state that I have *no* interest in seeing the newer Star Wars movie(s).
It is refreshing to see one person state their child considers the book “not a priority”.

Needless to say I don’t read much about this phenomenon; it’s not of interest to me. I can depress myself reading any number of other articles.
But since we’re so heavily into it and I was looking at Hitchens’ newest article (I’d like to see him give a take at it but with all the London stuff going on he assuredly wont), this link was in the sidebar.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2123105/?nav=ais

My long-term prediction is that these books will not have a shelf-life of decades; they are simply a fad and a gateway to movies. The children of the future will have the DVDs (or whatever technology is available then) and that’s all. If that.

But then again here’s me trying to be an “optimist”, for I also believe Stephen King will wither away and become entirely out of print.
j

 

[jay]

Based on your own comments regarding intelligence, you should be able to understand my comments without me having to explain them to you.

As I said, I like a little mystery, but digging in the dirt aint my bag.

I've made a simple deduction based on your own conduct. In addressing me, you have not once addressed my comments based on the issue at hand.

Actually I did at least “once” address you and quote you. At least.
Feel free to look back, we’ll wait here. […tapping foot…]

Anyone who would presume to tell others that they are of a lower intelligence based on what they read should not need me to explain the context of my posts.

They were out of context. “Context” out of context need not apply.
If you’d like to talk about the *actual* conversation some of us are having, fine.
If you’d like to cross-exam me, I’m not in need and you’re certainly not qualified.

Feel free to have at me again

No need, you’re laying it all out for others to see.

I don’t know, maybe I mistakenly missed something vital, something you worked on real hard and hoped it would surface as Something Special within the thread. My sincere apologies if I didn’t quote a certain something you’ve said and go on about it about it. I honestly don’t have time to comment on every little bit by every little poster.
And then there’s the possibility it just wasn’t worth commenting on.

Your every reply [to me] makes my case for me.

I’m glad you feel assured in your “case”.

So, summery: I think your coming across a bit Baby Jane’ish (*not* a kiddie reference) and you continually want to try to wax on my “intelligence” is not what, apparently, I think it is (although I’ve never claimed anything).
I’m fine with that.
Shall we stop boring these other people here and call it a day?

Maybe we’ll meet again on another thread and who knows…maybe have some pleasant things to say to each other. Maybe we’ll even have the same conversation. On the same planet.

And with that I say havva good weekend to all you fine lot,
j

 

[SFG75]

I often have a problem to make myself understood. No wonder, given that English is my 4th or 5th language. See if bullet points help:

• I did not try to restrain anyone from speaking
• I just pointed that SFG75 was only interested in Jay's opinion. I think he made it pretty obvious
• It seems Jay is everybody's favourite target (witch hunt?)

Sorry about that impression, I just picked up the habit of always bolding people's names. Not that it's a grammar rule or anything, but from I what see on other boards, it's an unwritten online grammar rule .

 

[Jennifer]

I'll leave out the complimentary stuff because it's faintly embarassing and not particularly relevant...[insert smiley of choice]
Regarding optimism: something in my brain just fails to function when it comes to reading. I'll complain about politics, television and stupidity all da, but show me a book and I assume the best. Perhaps this is why I was fooled into reading the Da Vinci Code.

Anyway, yes, he’s the big but controversial name in current French writing. I thought _Les particules élémentaires_ (_The Elementary Particles_ (US), but the UK translation is _Atomised_) was a very interesting work.

I've just read the Amazon reviews of the English version (not the most reliable source, I know, but you can tell the accurate reviews by the use of capitals and proper spelling). I suspect my French isn't up to the (possibly scientific) vocabulary in the book, but it looked intriguing and controversial, which can never be a bad thing.

I do rank reading a bit different than “pop” music (for example) though, as I’ve said earlier (maybe on another thread, for this one and “required reading” are merging a bit), most forms of entertainment can be done while doing other things.
Frankly, I prefer “jazz” and “classical” music, but at work I need something with a bit more ‘umph’.
Whereas reading is a pretty solitary act.

True. I suppose the difference between us is that you love reading so much you can't read a bad book for fear of sullying the experience, whereas I love it so much I'll forgive anything (including sacrificing writing style for characterisation. Though possibly not plundering conspiracy theories to add to your badly constructed novel.)

So for me to actually think about the fact that people are quickly devouring a book [checking Amazon] that is 652 pages, which I’d say has to take _at least_ 6-10 hours I’d equate this to sitting in a room with headphones on listening to the newest Miss Spears album, staring at the walls, for 10 hours straight.
10 hours may not seem like a lot of time, but I’m of the notion that 24 in a day just aint enough…

I think if it had taken me 6-10 hours I'd have given it up as a bad job. As it was, it took five hours of my last saturday morning before starting the mindnumbing experience that is work, and I don't regret that. Admittedly it was probably a waste of my time, but no more than the average school day [smugness factor 10] and it was considerably more enjoyable. Rowling constructs an interesting children's story, and if I was eight, I'd be out there in a cape with the rest of them. So given the amount of timewasting we do today, I'd say a Potter book is by no means the most depressing. However, if someone did listen to dear Britney for 10 straight hours, I would lose all faith in humanity.
Perhaps you should try a Potter book, jay. (You may have already, I don't know.) It's interesting to think how one average children's story can enter the public consciousness - why that series of books, in particular? They're about magic, which children like because it's out of the ordinary - but so are many books. They involve children foiling the evil plots of adults - like every Enid Blyton book, or similar. Or, perhaps most pertinently, escapism is the theme of today; in an increasingly troubled world, adults turn to the-book-which-must-not-be-named, and children, with their confused sense of dangerous times (say no to strangers) turn to a world in which children can be powerful. Despite saying earlier that I take my Eng. Lit. hat off when reading HP, I do have a strange urge to write an essay on the whole thing. Which I seem to be doing, so I'll stop.
Oh, and for the record (no pun intended), I like classical, not a huge fan of jazz, and I can tolerate cheesy pop while doing something else, but when I really want to listen to music, I listen to rock and heavy metal. Much like my taste in books.

 

[Motokid]

I think this thread was mentioned many posts back....and maybe the link provided....but since there's a good bit of new posts, from new members in the last day or two...some of you guys might like to read through this thread...it touches on some of the same stuff that's beeen discussed here, but in a bit of a different light...


sorry if this is a double post (it might have been shade that mentioned it...)

here's the link:

http://forums.thebookforum.com/showthread.php?t=6224&page=1&pp=15&highlight=blockbuster

 

[Stewart]

As an aside, referring back to the Harry Potter thing. (source)

The reviewer says: "How did Harry Potter become a household word?"

Not to mention she refers to the author as Rawlings throughout...

Got to love it.

 

[Shade]

"Rawlings" - love it! This must be deliberate, just as I sometimes refer to Cliff Richards or George Michaels or Trivial Pursuits just to be annoying. Yeah - I'm a fun guy to be with.

Who's that on your new avatar, Stewart?

 

[Stewart]

Who's that on your new avatar, Stewart?

I have no idea. I found the picture on this mess.

 

[jay]

Sorry about that impression, I just picked up the habit of always bolding people's names.

No blood; no foul.
I wasn’t worried.

I'll leave out the complimentary stuff because it's faintly embarrassing

ohhh shush and take a curtsy or two…

I suspect my French isn't up to the (possibly scientific) vocabulary in the book

It _might_ be a bit rough going in Frenchy…but yes “intriguing” is a great word for that particular book.

True. I suppose the difference between us is that you love reading so much you can't read a bad book for fear of sullying the experience, whereas I love it so much I'll forgive anything (including sacrificing writing style for characterisation. Though possibly not plundering conspiracy theories to add to your badly constructed novel.)

Well, I attempt them from time to time, of course not hoping they are bad. So yes, I generally will give anything a 50-page chance. If it doesn’t have me by page 50, it’s not worth the time. If I continue on and by page 100 I’m glancing up at my To Be Read pile, I probably wont make it to the end. It’s been _many_ years since I felt _obligated_ to finish a book, just as I will easily walk out of a movie if it’s just wasting my time.
I’m not one to think life is precious and ‘savour every moment’, but I’d rather stare at a wall than be engaged in something even less inspiring.

I think if it had taken me 6-10 hours I'd have given it up as a bad job. As it was, it took five hours of my last saturday morning

I guess by page-count alone I was thinking of smaller font, you know Big People books (here we go again!), but I guess HP may have the bigger, more spaced layout for easier digestion. I don’t really know where I got the vague calculation from as I couldn’t honestly even say how ‘quick/slow’ I read. I never tried to figure it out and it depends on the typeface and the interesting-factor of the book.
All that said, I wouldn’t be surprised if it took some people just a few hours as they seemingly just want the plot and may skim. Plus they may be just reading it and not really comprehending it (here we go again!) as I’ve seen many (many, many) people comment that they had/have to re-read the previous ones to ‘refresh’ and ‘I forgot what was going on!’ and/or they plan to re-read the new one is a short time. Cuz, you know, to retain something they “love” for a mere few years (and even months?) is a difficult task.

However, if someone did listen to dear Britney for 10 straight hours, I would lose all faith in humanity.

[hitting “pause” button, looking at clock]
um, yeah, me too.

Perhaps you should try a Potter book, jay. (You may have already, I don't know.) It's interesting to think how one average children's story can enter the public consciousness - why that series of books, in particular?

I flipped through the first one out of serious disgust of the Adult Factor. It was just surreal to ride public transportation and see people all around reading this book. People that usually had the Wall Street Journal, people that usually had WalkPersons annoying the whole train car, even people usually stupefied by just picking there nose. I truly felt like there was some mass-subliminal messaging going on that I just didn’t get subjected to. The nail in my hand was around that time I was in a “commercial art” course at MassArt and the assignment was to draw a book cover. Cool. A dream assignment with a never-ending source to work from. I bloody kid you not, 11 out of 16 people chose HP. These were adults.
By this time I was looking around for ‘pods’ now purely convinced the Body Snatchers was a true story.
Anyway, I flipped through the first one and the second one.

I just couldn’t do it. If paid to, say, write something on the series, a comparative study or something (and as you say about an urge to write an essay, undoubtedly there will be a few English PhDs to come out of this kind of study), ok. For money. But out of curiosity? Can’t. I had *no* tolerance for wizards and magic and orcs and all that crap when I was of-age, I couldn’t deal with it now.
I have trouble enough with reality.

here's the link:
http://forums.thebookforum.com/showthread.php?t=6224&page=1&pp=15&highlight=blockbuster

Thanks for reposting, it’s been mentioned a few times and I keep forgetting to look back. I repost here to remind myself to look into it later…

laboi states: "Be hard on me please." Jay is a new face to laboi, and he can certainly be tough. If the same people keep hammering laboi, he'll begin to think it's a personal issue...Jay is another source of information....and laboi keeps asking....

I wouldn’t feel right going in and critiquing someone I don’t know (or at least vaguely virtually ‘know’). It can be…unpleasant for some. One of my last in-depth (non-work related) critiques left a former professor not talking to me for 3 months (she used to write a weekly letter (yes, letter, some people still do that). I really annihilated her ms; I must have had more ink on it than she had type. (but it was reallllly bad). Eventually I got a long letter with her saying she agrees with most every point/comment I made. Although I think she was still stubborn over a comma or two (that’s a joke).
Anyway, if the kid (?) asks, I’ll do it (time permitting), but I’m not volunteering blind.

I have no idea. I found the picture on this mess.

“Victory Egg”?. You fancy some curious sites…

ok, back to Brittany,
j

 

[Jennifer]

Well, I attempt them from time to time, of course not hoping they are bad. So yes, I generally will give anything a 50-page chance. If it doesn’t have me by page 50, it’s not worth the time. If I continue on and by page 100 I’m glancing up at my To Be Read pile, I probably wont make it to the end. It’s been _many_ years since I felt _obligated_ to finish a book, just as I will easily walk out of a movie if it’s just wasting my time.
I’m not one to think life is precious and ‘savour every moment’, but I’d rather stare at a wall than be engaged in something even less inspiring.

Guess it's that optimism again, but I finish most things, if not all. Reading is my favourite occupation and gets me through exams, so I'd rather read a bad book than stare at the wall - at least then I have the pleasure of verbally ripping it to shreds to the next unfortunate who crosses my path. And then I know to avoid others of its ilk, saving me from thousands of potentially dire books.

I guess by page-count alone I was thinking of smaller font, you know Big People books (here we go again!), but I guess HP may have the bigger, more spaced layout for easier digestion. I don’t really know where I got the vague calculation from as I couldn’t honestly even say how ‘quick/slow’ I read. I never tried to figure it out and it depends on the typeface and the interesting-factor of the book.
All that said, I wouldn’t be surprised if it took some people just a few hours as they seemingly just want the plot and may skim. Plus they may be just reading it and not really comprehending it (here we go again!) as I’ve seen many (many, many) people comment that they had/have to re-read the previous ones to ‘refresh’ and ‘I forgot what was going on!’ and/or they plan to re-read the new one is a short time. Cuz, you know, to retain something they “love” for a mere few years (and even months?) is a difficult task.

I wasn't querying your guess at the time it takes, just saying that I wasn't really wasting that much time on it. The big type and easy style mean it's easy to read quickly, but I do that anyway. I agree that most probably skim it. However, not everyone can afford to spend their time reading, and not everyone is blessed with a good memory, and possibly some people's definition of loving a book is different from ours. I am a fast reader with a good memory but this is because I have the time and the brain-space for it - many don't. I'm as elitist as the next reader, but if the amorphous mass we call The People choose to skim-read and forget a book, they're welcome to it. (Having said that, we are talking seriously simple books here, so maybe your assessment is not that harsh. If you love it that much, why can you not remember plot details?)

I flipped through the first one out of serious disgust of the Adult Factor. It was just surreal to ride public transportation and see people all around reading this book. People that usually had the Wall Street Journal, people that usually had WalkPersons annoying the whole train car, even people usually stupefied by just picking there nose. I truly felt like there was some mass-subliminal messaging going on that I just didn’t get subjected to. The nail in my hand was around that time I was in a “commercial art” course at MassArt and the assignment was to draw a book cover. Cool. A dream assignment with a never-ending source to work from. I bloody kid you not, 11 out of 16 people chose HP. These were adults.
By this time I was looking around for ‘pods’ now purely convinced the Body Snatchers was a true story.
Anyway, I flipped through the first one and the second one.

I just couldn’t do it. If paid to, say, write something on the series, a comparative study or something (and as you say about an urge to write an essay, undoubtedly there will be a few English PhDs to come out of this kind of study), ok. For money. But out of curiosity? Can’t. I had *no* tolerance for wizards and magic and orcs and all that crap when I was of-age, I couldn’t deal with it now.
I have trouble enough with reality.

Well, I guess there's a nostalgia factor. I had (and still have) a seriously high tolerance level for magic and orcs and the like, and for anyone that grew up on Tolkien and Narnia, HP makes you feel less jaded and ancient (I imagine, not being particularly ancient, though somewhat jaded). And the phenomenon is interesting in the way that Big Brother is interesting (why, just why?!) - there's obviously some kind of appeal to it which, if we could figure it out, would probably give us the key to ruling the world. (I think Murdoch's already found it). It is odd, and there are obviously better books around - I'm not saying I'd choose Harry Potter over anything else. But I read books for two reasons. The first is the sheer pleasure of a well-constructed novel, with all the attendant writing skill and plotting. The second is reading a story without being aware that you are actually reading - without remembering that this is simply words on a page, but simply enjoying the story at face value. Harry Potter is the second. The writing style is pedestrian, and at times, desperately contrived (why be original when a cliché will do, eh Miss Rowling?), but the story is fun and easy. You're not going to be convinced - you probably feel exactly as I do when I see the dreaded Da Vinci Code on buses - but surely you can see the attraction? Some people deal with reality by coping, some by ignoring it, and some by escaping. Harry Potter is an escape to the kind of childhood you wish you'd had. Don't lose your faith in humanity just because people make unintelligent choices over books. The world can be depressing and crap, but some people are de-stressing and brightening up because of a children's book; how is that a bad thing?
Alright, I'm off the soap-box now. Perhaps those 11 people picked HP because if you draw dragons wrongly, who's going to know...?
(I note that Atomised has the same size font as HP - you know, a Big People book! All meant in good humour, and all that.)