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Brace yourself - same sex marriage legal

On the other hand, lots of Catholic priests are gay and it's always been that way. It was always 'don't ask, don't tell," but all Catholics know it's true. Not a bad thing, just the way it is.

http://www.the-tidings.com/2005/0318/celibacy.htm

I don't see the Pope kicking all these guys out of the priesthood, even if they are admitting to this 'sinful' predilection. Who would join up then? So why deny their existence?

Priest enrollment is already way down, and they can't recruit nuns from Western countries at all.

It says a lot that they have to get most of their recruits from Third World countries these days--places where it's still a viable way out of poverty and hard labor and toward a decent, free education.

The dudes in Rome clearly think of themselves as big powerbrokers, but there's a lot going on at the ground level that they aren't controlling very well. Gone are the days when every Catholic obeys the Pope. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
 
To bring the debate tenuously to books, Clive Barker refers to David Armstrong as his husband. David, also, refers to Clive as his husband. They wear wedding rings also.
 
Stewart said:
To bring the debate tenuously to books, Clive Barker refers to David Armstrong as his husband. David, also, refers to Clive as his husband. They wear wedding rings also.
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Bad ass. No reason they shouldn't do those things. No one can take that away from them. No one should take that away from them (or anybody else for that matter). ;)
 
Novella - thankyou for your posts #35 and #36. You say with eloquence and factual support everything I wished to be said. :)
 
Motokid said:
If gays are seeking the same "religious" status in terms of marriage, and recognition from the church, thats going to be one long-ass journey.
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Here's what I find most interesting. This situation is almost like one of those movies about high school, where there's an "in crowd" that torments and makes fun of everybody else because no one is as cool as the in crowd, but despite that treatment, everybody thinks they're the greatest and wants to be a part of it.

The Old Testament blatantly says (and I'm paraphrasing), "Stone to death gay people." Yes, theologically Jesus turned Judaism upside down in the New Testament, and the "Ye without sin cast the first stone" clause went into effect, even though it's conveniently forgotten from time to time. Even with that clause, the New Testament still commands the church to chastise and remove people from the congregation who continually take part in activities that are considered sinful. Yet, homosexuals feel the need to be accepted by this group of people that detests them. I realize there are almost innumerable social reasons why people want to be part of a group, but maybe instead of trying to gain religious acceptance, maybe religious homosexuals should take another route. A new branch of the church? Some people are already taking a stab at that. A different religion? Rastafarian, maybe? No religion?

Governments will eventually accept the change, but it takes time. As for religion, it doesn't make laws anyway.
 
«FickleMinded» said:
^^of course not! I've never seen or heard same sex animals that fucked each other,I doubt if they are aware of it though , so i was referring more on their "relationship". :D
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You should watch Ricky Gervais's Animals then.

Same sex marriages have been legal in Belgium for a while now, and I think it's great.
 
RitalinKid said:
Yet, homosexuals feel the need to be accepted by this group of people that detests them. I realize there are almost innumerable social reasons why people want to be part of a group, but maybe instead of trying to gain religious acceptance, maybe religious homosexuals should take another route. .
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I think a lot of gay people play a central role in their churches and church societies already. I know two gay guys who are really in-demand pipe organists for several big congregations (one has played most of the big church organs in NYC!), they are extemely active in their churches, and very politically conservative. (Both are from the South, maybe that explains a lot.)

The point is, these guys were raised in church culture and have always been at the heart of it their whole lives. They sit on committees, decide what money gets spent on, organize events. They've never viewed themselves as outside it at all. Now they want to be recognized by their organizations for what they honestly are. It's not like they are trying to belong where they don't fit in. On the contrary.
 
RitalinKid said:
Yet, homosexuals feel the need to be accepted by this group of people that detests them. I realize there are almost innumerable social reasons why people want to be part of a group, but maybe instead of trying to gain religious acceptance, maybe religious homosexuals should take another route. A new branch of the church? Some people are already taking a stab at that. A different religion? Rastafarian, maybe? No religion?
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Even within organised religions, for example Catholosism, there are a multitude of different interpretations. The Bible contradicts itself in so many ways, so people have different interpretations of what God means to be said. Two people sitting beside each other in a church congregation may have completely different views on how God views homosexuality. Does this mean that they should start a new church and leave the support of their congregation which upholds many of the other values they support? Hell no!

In the words of one of my friends, who happens to be both a Christian and a homosexual: "I believe in a God who, I'm told, doesn't believe in me". He struggled with his sexuality for a long time before realising that it was who he was. Rather than leave a church that didn't support his choice, he stayed on and participated in Bible studies and showed his congregation how *he* thought he was serving God, and how his choice was right in the eyes of God.

Surely that's a more proactive step rather than creating further devision in the community and starting a new religion. Homosexuality has always existed, it's just been denied as a social norm for a few thousand years. The churches need to realise that their congregations include people who have different views, and they need to adopt a few of them. Unfortunately I can't see this happening in my lifetime - especially not while condoms are still viewed with such vehement denial.
 
Just exactly how big are their organs novella.....and is an organist any different than a penis't..pianist.... :D
 
Motokid said:
Just exactly how big are their organs novella.....and is an organist any different than a penis't..pianist.... :D
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Oh, golly. Some of those pipes are 30 feet long. Absolutely amazing. :p
 
I was reared in an extremely fundamentalist Missionary Baptist Church, and that's where my statement is coming from. Fundamentally, Christianity cannot accept homosexuals without admitting that the scriptures are imperfect. Admitting the divinely inspired scriptures are flawed impliesthat the Divinity that inspired them is flawed OR whoever copied them down changed them. This then opens up the question: So, if it's wrong about homosexuals, what else is it wrong about? Is it wrong about Christ? As if the religion isn't held up on toothpicks already, the situation would only get worse.

Faith is the equalizer though, the catch all. Faith can clog huge holes in a the hull of a sinking ship (as the Rastafarians found out when Haile Selassie I died), but I don't know how a clergyman can say to his congregation, "We no longer believe this, this or this, but that and that are true." If it can even be done, changing the "laws" of Christianity can't be easy. It's not a Constitution. It's the Word. Christians would have to undermine the very basis of their religion, from a fundamentalist point of view.
novella said:
They've never viewed themselves as outside it at all. Now they want to be recognized by their organizations for what they honestly are. It's not like they are trying to belong where they don't fit in. On the contrary.
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Just to clarify, you point out that the people of the church accept them, but I'm just pointing out that, unless edited, the Bible, the law of the church, will always say that homosexuality is a sin, punishable by death under the Old Law.

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I wrote all that shit, so I'm going to let you read it, and now, I'm going to reply to myself. I realize what's going to happen here. When the church is forced to accept gay members, "scholarly" research is going to pull up why the homosexuality as the Bible refers to it is not the same as homosexuality today. Do a google search. There are people already saying that the homosexuality referred to in the Bible is more along the lines of man on man or man on boy rape, not the loving relationships we see today; those are okay. A shift. Brilliant. I heard a guy say one time, "The Bible is always right. Only the way we interpret it can be wrong." Catch all. Brilliant. So, it can change without changing.
 
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