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Decapitations
- Thread starter Stewart
- Start date
VTChEwbecca
kickbox
The easy answer would be the withdrawal of troops, though I'm not sure that will stop the decapitations, it just may make them less frequent (and probably less newsworthy). Unfortuantely, I'm not sure withdrawing troops is the best idea at this time, as the "war" has caused such instability. There are such differences between cultures, that it makes it difficult for one culture to understand and accept the other, which fuels hatred and anger on both sides. I'm not sure it wouldn't take less than a miracle, at least at this time, to put an end to the beheadings and kidnappings. There has been such animosity between the Middle Eastern cultures and Western culture for so long, and it doesn't appear that there will be any end to this anger any time soon. The cultures are so different that it is hard to reconcile one to the other, especially in today's climate. The war started by Bush has just managed to push the hatred to new levels, and I'm not sure an end to the war would allow those levels to return to the "normal" levels of hatred...at least not for many years.
I can say that I think some president who is less war-hungry and more in-tune with peace might be able to move the process along more quickly, but old wounds tend to heal slowly....and I'm not sure there is enough time in the world to achieve peace between the Middle East & the West.
What do you think? Since you asked the question, I assume you have some opinion on the matter. I'm trying to write my response without being too political, as per forum regulations. I'm sure you have a more historically based perspective...most of my interest in history does not lie in the Middle East, so I only have a basic knowledge of previous events.
I can say that I think some president who is less war-hungry and more in-tune with peace might be able to move the process along more quickly, but old wounds tend to heal slowly....and I'm not sure there is enough time in the world to achieve peace between the Middle East & the West.
What do you think? Since you asked the question, I assume you have some opinion on the matter. I'm trying to write my response without being too political, as per forum regulations. I'm sure you have a more historically based perspective...most of my interest in history does not lie in the Middle East, so I only have a basic knowledge of previous events.
Stewart
Active Member
VTChEwbecca said:
I haven't much of an opinion as, to me, it's just pictures and words in print and on screen. I just think it's desperate bargaining by silly little people who's beliefs have been twisted our of proportion by an Abu[/b]-figure who has a gripe with the ideals of his original beliefs over how his country operated with double standards towards their beliefs. The day any country caves in to demands whereby the bargaining chip is one citizen will never come. These fundamentalists know this but, by giving a period to wait, they cling to some hope.
I was hoping someone would reply with a decent response rather than some typical shit-kicking Yankee gun-toting crap which I've seen on other forums where similar stories occur. Thankyou.
The area does, however, have a history whereby the Arab peoples have been attacked from all sides by differing empires...including the Ethiopians in their hey-day!
No.
bobbyburns
New Member
there are physical tortures going on in the world, people are horribly brutal and you like to think about it and get excited. but sitting here on this forum, what can you do about what is happening in another place? wish that it would stop? you could join a group that is going to end this torture of human beings, make a demonstration in front of somebody--but the torture will go on. all that history and violence is written into us, in our brains. you think it's a terrible world we are in because you live with the same fears, the same conflict, that people had a thousand years ago. so you can blame it on the fundamentalists, but you and I are just as responsible for violence in the middle east as they are.
Jenem
kickbox
agree with almost everything you said, bobby, except the last part about you and i being just as responsible. i dont understand how i could be responsible if i did nothing to start the situation and there is nothing i could do to change it (realistically). what do you mean? how am i at all responsible? who on this earth is void of responsibility? these are serious questions, i am not using them to make a point. i really mean to understand what you mean
bobbyburns
New Member
our society, the culture in which we live, is the result of human endeavour, conflict, human misery and suffering. I'm not talking in theory, but as a fact, each one of us is that culture; we are not separate from it. if there is conflict in the world, it is because there is conflict internally, within us.
Litany
Active Member
How about this...if we weren't all such truly selfish feckers, if we didn't insist on everything now, on everything cheap, on everything sterilised and wiped clean of all human emotion, if we didn't distance ourselves so much from the horrors we see on the news every night, then maybe such terrible things wouldn't be happening.
We all allowed the world to get this way. Think about how really truly awful it is for someone to get their head cut off for absolutely no reason at all, and then think about how clinical we're being about it? It's in our nature to be brutal and not care about strangers. We care for our families and our friends because they help keep us alive, but strangers aren't our problems. They're somebody else's friend and family. They're our competition.
As a race we are cruel and brutal, and the people who don't go in for violence personally still profit by it and do nothing to stop it. Cruelty and torture may be carried out by a minority, but we're all well aware it's going on and we do nothing about it. Our governments deal with corrupt regimes and do nothing about it because it isn't profitable, and we would all certainly complain about the rise in our taxes if we were off fighting crusades against cruelty every five minutes. And we all know that our governments are dealing with corrupt regimes and even that they are corrupt themselves, but we don't riot in the streets, we don't revolt. We just grumble about it, most of us don't even bother to vote them out.
We all of us feel some sort of compassion when we think about the families of people that died, but how many of us are prepared to give up our comfortable lives and our belongings and our jobs and our holidays and actually do something about it?
We made the world the way it is because to survive through our past we had to be violent and aggressive. You cooperate with your clan and you kill your competition and you survive. And that requires that you be able to look objectively at another person suffering and just not care about it. It's collateral damage. You tell yourself 'I didn't pull the trigger, it's not my fault' 'He was stupid to be there in the first place, he was asking for trouble' 'If you join the army you have to expect to get killed' and numerous other self comforting platitudes to get you through the day.
I don't know what Bobby means by internal conflict, but for me we're just a bunch of angry little monkeys dressed up pretty and playing at being civilised. There are a few people who break the trend, but precious few indeed.
But still, no point in getting all depressed about it.
And before anyone accuses me of being preachy, I've got my tv and my Game Cube and my nice house and my comfortable life, and I'm certainly not prepared to stand in front of a tank or set myself on fire. We evolved to be selfish, I'm not going to get all angsty over it.
We all allowed the world to get this way. Think about how really truly awful it is for someone to get their head cut off for absolutely no reason at all, and then think about how clinical we're being about it? It's in our nature to be brutal and not care about strangers. We care for our families and our friends because they help keep us alive, but strangers aren't our problems. They're somebody else's friend and family. They're our competition.
As a race we are cruel and brutal, and the people who don't go in for violence personally still profit by it and do nothing to stop it. Cruelty and torture may be carried out by a minority, but we're all well aware it's going on and we do nothing about it. Our governments deal with corrupt regimes and do nothing about it because it isn't profitable, and we would all certainly complain about the rise in our taxes if we were off fighting crusades against cruelty every five minutes. And we all know that our governments are dealing with corrupt regimes and even that they are corrupt themselves, but we don't riot in the streets, we don't revolt. We just grumble about it, most of us don't even bother to vote them out.
We all of us feel some sort of compassion when we think about the families of people that died, but how many of us are prepared to give up our comfortable lives and our belongings and our jobs and our holidays and actually do something about it?
We made the world the way it is because to survive through our past we had to be violent and aggressive. You cooperate with your clan and you kill your competition and you survive. And that requires that you be able to look objectively at another person suffering and just not care about it. It's collateral damage. You tell yourself 'I didn't pull the trigger, it's not my fault' 'He was stupid to be there in the first place, he was asking for trouble' 'If you join the army you have to expect to get killed' and numerous other self comforting platitudes to get you through the day.
I don't know what Bobby means by internal conflict, but for me we're just a bunch of angry little monkeys dressed up pretty and playing at being civilised. There are a few people who break the trend, but precious few indeed.
But still, no point in getting all depressed about it.
And before anyone accuses me of being preachy, I've got my tv and my Game Cube and my nice house and my comfortable life, and I'm certainly not prepared to stand in front of a tank or set myself on fire. We evolved to be selfish, I'm not going to get all angsty over it.bobbyburns
New Member
that was really beautiful, litany.
bobbyburns
New Member
everyone loves monkeys, of course. we have to love them, otherwise we'd be overwhelmed and start throwing fecal matter at each other. Ha Ha.
True@1stLight
New Member
Jenem said:
Aww, don't worry though Jenem! THERE'S MONKEY'S!!
Sorry I actually have a stuffed rally monkey for my Cubbies!! Hooah!
lahondas
New Member
the real question is when did it start?Abulafia said:
i really htink its been going on for quite a long time and it wont stop. besides, they arent the only people who behead, it went on centuries ago, and many evil poeple do it. no matter what culture race age, there will always be murdererd, and evil people doing very inhumane things.
Jenem
kickbox
ok, re-written (and not as decent as the first one i had), here is my response:
Litany, your post is an excellent analysis on the darker side of human nature, but I can’t agree that because I’m a human and subject to human nature, that I’m in any way responsible for the middle east situation. Perhaps our definitions or perceptions of responsibility differ.
IMHO human nature is responsible, but I am not responsible for human nature. I am a product of human nature and I’m responsible for MY nature and the role I play on things I can affect. Because I possess human nature doesn’t mean I had anything to do with events completely out of my control. Let’s call a spade a spade here and admit to the fact that commoners like me have no power to make a difference in things so vast and historic as the middle east situation. I know this isn’t the current (PC) way of thinking, but I call things like I see them. Bin Laden, Hussein, Arafat, Bush and the rest don’t give a rats behind what I do. I have no part in this terrible situation just as I have no part in many of the good decisions made on the behalf of peace.
I have no illusions about the things I can have an effect on, no qualms about taking responsibility for things. The environment, give me that – I’ll take a load of the responsibility. I’ll take the local drug problem, child poverty, gas prices and homelessness too. Because I can do something to affect them. But let’s be realistic about the middle east. I personally did nothing that had anything to do with the current situation, and there is nothing I could possibly do that would have an effect. ( PC BS out the window here, I won’t be held responsible for something I had absolutely no hand in bringing about, nor can have any hand changing. Of course, I’m sure my view on this isn’t held in high regard because not taking responsibility for a situation makes it seem like one does not care or is not willing to be responsible out of disdain for the situation.
As for general population, for many, apathy is a necessary mechanism of self-protection (especially in this case.)
Asked what I think should be done to resolve the middle east situation, my answer is the same as many. USA could stop feeding Israel money. They could have pulled out troops from the areas held sacred by Palestine. There are too many things that could have been done, I guess. Concentrating on what should be done - perhaps they could listen to the UN a little more often. Certainly the PLO and similar groups could make a real commitment to end violence. As for Iraq – Vtchewbecca is right on the money. it’s tough because if the USA pulls out now, then will we see another Liberia? Broken and abandoned? Or will that leave us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks like 9/11? Things have gone so far out of control, there are so many elements - how can we know what will help? In a perfect world, the US would hand over control to Iraq and bring her troops home. Iraq would govern herself freely and confidence in the US as a peace-making country could being again, as a first step. But to end the decapitations now – every foreigner in Iraq needs to get out now.
Litany, your post is an excellent analysis on the darker side of human nature, but I can’t agree that because I’m a human and subject to human nature, that I’m in any way responsible for the middle east situation. Perhaps our definitions or perceptions of responsibility differ.
IMHO human nature is responsible, but I am not responsible for human nature. I am a product of human nature and I’m responsible for MY nature and the role I play on things I can affect. Because I possess human nature doesn’t mean I had anything to do with events completely out of my control. Let’s call a spade a spade here and admit to the fact that commoners like me have no power to make a difference in things so vast and historic as the middle east situation. I know this isn’t the current (PC) way of thinking, but I call things like I see them. Bin Laden, Hussein, Arafat, Bush and the rest don’t give a rats behind what I do. I have no part in this terrible situation just as I have no part in many of the good decisions made on the behalf of peace.
I have no illusions about the things I can have an effect on, no qualms about taking responsibility for things. The environment, give me that – I’ll take a load of the responsibility. I’ll take the local drug problem, child poverty, gas prices and homelessness too. Because I can do something to affect them. But let’s be realistic about the middle east. I personally did nothing that had anything to do with the current situation, and there is nothing I could possibly do that would have an effect. ( PC BS out the window here, I won’t be held responsible for something I had absolutely no hand in bringing about, nor can have any hand changing. Of course, I’m sure my view on this isn’t held in high regard because not taking responsibility for a situation makes it seem like one does not care or is not willing to be responsible out of disdain for the situation.
As for general population, for many, apathy is a necessary mechanism of self-protection (especially in this case.)
Asked what I think should be done to resolve the middle east situation, my answer is the same as many. USA could stop feeding Israel money. They could have pulled out troops from the areas held sacred by Palestine. There are too many things that could have been done, I guess. Concentrating on what should be done - perhaps they could listen to the UN a little more often. Certainly the PLO and similar groups could make a real commitment to end violence. As for Iraq – Vtchewbecca is right on the money. it’s tough because if the USA pulls out now, then will we see another Liberia? Broken and abandoned? Or will that leave us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks like 9/11? Things have gone so far out of control, there are so many elements - how can we know what will help? In a perfect world, the US would hand over control to Iraq and bring her troops home. Iraq would govern herself freely and confidence in the US as a peace-making country could being again, as a first step. But to end the decapitations now – every foreigner in Iraq needs to get out now.
bobbyburns
New Member
really, though, ending violence in one region isn't going to make any difference; the revolution has to happen inside. we can throw away the bombs, but the fact is we're violent now, every one of us is capable of torturing each other. and it doesn't have to be physical, there is psychological torture. can you see that? none of this is your fault, but it is your responsibility. like when someone swerves into your lane on the road; whether you think it should've happened or not, you have to make the choice to move.
Abulafia said:
When I was very young, which means when I was very hot-headed, tended to jump to conclusion,etc, I thought at that time, that there should have some kind of executions, decapitation, hanging, electrical thing. (how you deal with such kinda person as the murderer in Texas chainsaw case. I heard the movie was based on the real case. God, I am not brave to see that movie.
) Anyway, I, as a teenger, thought those kind of sentences have their rights to exist.However, thanks to reading the books, I began to realize that beheading, hanging, ... those are not the most cruel thing in the world, at their best , they are only the lowest level in destroying a person. To me, the most cruel and the highest level to kill a person is to kill with no blood, to kill with thoughts. Since I have finised the book, the flame of attention, I can understand most of what bobby has said here. In this book, another line drew my attention, i.e ' you are the rest of the human being'. To me, it means that as an individual, i have some invisible connection or link with the rest of the humanbeings. If i am cruel to other person, I am cruel to myself.
As for the question, I do not think i can do something to stop it. There are governments, power things invovled. But on the other hand, I think i can do something. I mean, at least, I can show my smile to my friends, to my neighbours, to my colleagues, to the people around me. At least, I can do something, even the smallest, to tell the sky that as a particle, I want to deserve to be called a humanbeing.
Anyway, these are what on my mind now.
bobbyburns
New Member
you can listen to watercrystal, jenem. 
Litany
Active Member
I don't believe that 'the little people' are powerless. I think we're just too apathetic. I don't take responsibility for local problems and then dismiss the Middle East because it's so far away. We don't each of us live in a vacuum. Our choices have consequences. But we all just say we can't do anything to change it, and as a result nothing will ever change. We're plenty responsible for the situation in the Middle East if you look back over how much we've messed them around and interfered. But then people do look back and say that they can't be blamed for the sins of their fathers, and so it carries on and on and no one stops it.
We all point at the goverment. But who is the government? They're just people themselves. But whilst we're capable of great acts of kindness individually, lump us all together and people are vile. We act like total tossers. We act like pack animals, and when anything goes wrong we point at the alpha male, in this case the government, shake our heads and deny responsibility.
I'm not saying everyone in the world is personally culpable everytime a person is killed, but we are collectively responsible for that situation coming to rise in the first place.
And I'm not saying that we are responsible for human nature. That would be nonsense. I'm saying that it is our nature to be aggressive towards others. And as such we will always live with violence.
We all point at the goverment. But who is the government? They're just people themselves. But whilst we're capable of great acts of kindness individually, lump us all together and people are vile. We act like total tossers. We act like pack animals, and when anything goes wrong we point at the alpha male, in this case the government, shake our heads and deny responsibility.
I'm not saying everyone in the world is personally culpable everytime a person is killed, but we are collectively responsible for that situation coming to rise in the first place.
And I'm not saying that we are responsible for human nature. That would be nonsense. I'm saying that it is our nature to be aggressive towards others. And as such we will always live with violence.
Jenem
kickbox
so what can someone like me do, really, to make a difference? to take the "responsibility" i have for the situation and use it? i mean realistically make some sort of difference to what is going on over there? this is what i mean. i guess i live my life dealing with tangible responsibility.
i don't by any means dismiss the middle east situation. i follow it as closely as one can when all the info available is via media and internet (the Middle East Report and UK's Guardian websites are good), and when i go to the polls this week i will vote for a party that holds a foreign policy with similar values than mine. hmm - maybe that is a bit of the responsibility - but doesn't seem like much
i don't by any means dismiss the middle east situation. i follow it as closely as one can when all the info available is via media and internet (the Middle East Report and UK's Guardian websites are good), and when i go to the polls this week i will vote for a party that holds a foreign policy with similar values than mine. hmm - maybe that is a bit of the responsibility - but doesn't seem like much