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Discussion: Clemens, James: Wit'ch Fire
- Thread starter rune
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Sell Sword
New Member
I've read all of James Clemens (and some of his alter-ego James Rollins). I loved the Banned and the Banished books (or the Wit'ch books if you will), but I did feel that the series lost momentum toward the end. I'm a sucker for the old rag-tag band of adventurers united against a great evil force scenario. Shadowfall was rather interesting with the whole Magic system, albeit a tad disgusting at times.
Sell Sword
New Member
The Rollins books are Adventure with a touch of the Supernatural. I have only read Subterranean and Excavation thus far (the 2 are not related in any way). He has about 6 or 7 novels out and I believe they are all stand-alone. Fun stuff, I plan on reading them all eventually.
Hyperstorm
New Member
Hey Rune
The books Sellsword mentioned written under the name of James Rollins are as follows[in order of publication]:
1] Subterranean
2] Excavation
3] Deep Fathom
4] Amazonia
5] Ice hunt
6] Sandstorm
7] Map of Bones
the last two mentioned books are part of a new SIGMA series, SS is the prequel & MOB is book1, but they aren't related storywise though some of the characters are the same, it would be good if you could read SS before you read MOB
also Jim's next book is The Blackl Order[SIGMA book 2] and it will feature a character from his earlier books, he hasn't mentioned which book it will be!!!
If you wanna know more bout his then go to http://www.jamesrollins.com/latestnews.htm & read news dated June 11, 2004 & January 3, 2005
Hope it helps, btw i have read Shadowfall & if you would like to discuss it, i wouldn't mind to do so, also if you wanna join the Jim's discussion board i"ll be glad to see another fan over there so here you go http://phate999.proboards46.com/index.cgi
PS: Sellsword dude you can consider joining too if you dont mind
The books Sellsword mentioned written under the name of James Rollins are as follows[in order of publication]:
1] Subterranean
2] Excavation
3] Deep Fathom
4] Amazonia
5] Ice hunt
6] Sandstorm
7] Map of Bones
the last two mentioned books are part of a new SIGMA series, SS is the prequel & MOB is book1, but they aren't related storywise though some of the characters are the same, it would be good if you could read SS before you read MOB
also Jim's next book is The Blackl Order[SIGMA book 2] and it will feature a character from his earlier books, he hasn't mentioned which book it will be!!!
If you wanna know more bout his then go to http://www.jamesrollins.com/latestnews.htm & read news dated June 11, 2004 & January 3, 2005
Hope it helps, btw i have read Shadowfall & if you would like to discuss it, i wouldn't mind to do so, also if you wanna join the Jim's discussion board i"ll be glad to see another fan over there so here you go http://phate999.proboards46.com/index.cgi
PS: Sellsword dude you can consider joining too if you dont mind
I've read the first three novels of the Banned and Banished series, but I couldn't bare anymore. I thought Wit'ch Fire was just about ok - on the level of Eddings, which is to say, talentless, unoriginal, terrible characterisation, but for all that, somehow readable and entertaining on a basic level. Books 2 and 3 marked a significant deterioration. But there were some flaws evident from the beginning:
1) His ridiculous use of apostrophes, when there was no discernable reason for their use, except perhaps, to make him look more original than he was. But writing rock'goblin, or el'vin, or wit'ch doesn't fool anyone, it just seriously irritates them.
2) The lack of originality - there was some potential at the start. I'll admit that - the dark lord had won. But of course, so that was only a plot device to get the story moving, it had no real implications for the world. And then what do we have - a group of adventures, with the protagonist as a young girl, who finds an ancient mentor, who finds out that they're actually very important and have magical powers, then goes and defeats the dark lord. A couple of expendable characters die, everyone else is invincible. To put it simply, he fails The Fantasy novelists exam on far too many questions.
3) Characters - someone should go and get Clemens to read some decent authors to see how to give them some semblance of realism. Or at least get his editor to warn him of the most amateur writing mistakes. Like a character contradicting himself. Like a character's background having absolutely no effect on a person. Like having absolutely no flaws, or no redeeming points. In other words, he can't write characters. But is that alone enough to condemn him? Not quite, in my mind, but it's a pretty big problem.
4) The plot - well it has plenty of deus ex machinas and is hardly original, but by this stage, you're not really expecting anything else. But then it's predictability is pretty much unparalleled. Wit'ch Storm had perhaps the most obvious ending, and lead up to it, that has ever been written. Perhaps he was hoping to derive some unpredictability by having something so obvious that no one would expect. But that's not the only problem - in Wit'ch War, the deus ex machinas frankly terrible. I thought Tolkien's were bad at the end of LotR, but this idea of invincible characters is really annoying.
1) His ridiculous use of apostrophes, when there was no discernable reason for their use, except perhaps, to make him look more original than he was. But writing rock'goblin, or el'vin, or wit'ch doesn't fool anyone, it just seriously irritates them.
2) The lack of originality - there was some potential at the start. I'll admit that - the dark lord had won. But of course, so that was only a plot device to get the story moving, it had no real implications for the world. And then what do we have - a group of adventures, with the protagonist as a young girl, who finds an ancient mentor, who finds out that they're actually very important and have magical powers, then goes and defeats the dark lord. A couple of expendable characters die, everyone else is invincible. To put it simply, he fails The Fantasy novelists exam on far too many questions.
3) Characters - someone should go and get Clemens to read some decent authors to see how to give them some semblance of realism. Or at least get his editor to warn him of the most amateur writing mistakes. Like a character contradicting himself. Like a character's background having absolutely no effect on a person. Like having absolutely no flaws, or no redeeming points. In other words, he can't write characters. But is that alone enough to condemn him? Not quite, in my mind, but it's a pretty big problem.
4) The plot - well it has plenty of deus ex machinas and is hardly original, but by this stage, you're not really expecting anything else. But then it's predictability is pretty much unparalleled. Wit'ch Storm had perhaps the most obvious ending, and lead up to it, that has ever been written. Perhaps he was hoping to derive some unpredictability by having something so obvious that no one would expect. But that's not the only problem - in Wit'ch War, the deus ex machinas frankly terrible. I thought Tolkien's were bad at the end of LotR, but this idea of invincible characters is really annoying.
Hyperstorm
New Member
Well i gotta disagree with you Brys on all accounts.
1] The use of apostrophes was just a way of writing, plus you could hardly notice it after the first 20-30 pages or so, also on asking the author it has been revealed that there is a reason for those apostrophes which would be revealed in the sequel series to the B&B whenever it gets published.
2] I fail to see whom or what wasn't original in the plot, given the fact that most fantasy novels have the same setting[perhaps in different disguises] but overall the story remains the same[ good guys vs bad guys with magick being involved & central to the storyline] and again James has cleverly disguised this setting to give us a pleasant story. if you think that by winning the first war the dark lord didn't do anything then my friend i cannot believe you have read the book & there are enough details of the overall scenario which is pretty grim & desolate to say the least.
3] About the characters they were a motley group & if you say that they have no flaws[Mogweed, Meric, Er'ril....] or redeeming points[ Kral,Mogweed, Meric,etc...] then it leads me to my first conclusion again that you haven't read the first book as thet are presented with flaws all of them including the protagonist, infact the entire series is not only magic but also the emotions of the characters[flaws & redeeming points both] & their journey which leads to their redeemption,death & in some cases both.
4] I beg to differ with you on this point[deus ex machina] the ending of wi'tch storm was good & i fail to realise how omnipotency was involved over here[ if you are referring to th Tyr'sil, then it was just a plot device whose background was already told, so where is the question of deus ex machina?]
Even i agree with you on Tolkien's Lotr ending, i disliked it a lot but in thi case you haven't completed the entire series to understand the beauty of the story & all its mechanisms[The origin of the darklord, ebonstone, hearstone, and the ties of all the characters within themselves and the land] so i would recommend that you read the entire series before pronouncing your judgement or otherwise pass me off as a fan of James Clemens & move on pal.
Storm
1] The use of apostrophes was just a way of writing, plus you could hardly notice it after the first 20-30 pages or so, also on asking the author it has been revealed that there is a reason for those apostrophes which would be revealed in the sequel series to the B&B whenever it gets published.
2] I fail to see whom or what wasn't original in the plot, given the fact that most fantasy novels have the same setting[perhaps in different disguises] but overall the story remains the same[ good guys vs bad guys with magick being involved & central to the storyline] and again James has cleverly disguised this setting to give us a pleasant story. if you think that by winning the first war the dark lord didn't do anything then my friend i cannot believe you have read the book & there are enough details of the overall scenario which is pretty grim & desolate to say the least.
3] About the characters they were a motley group & if you say that they have no flaws[Mogweed, Meric, Er'ril....] or redeeming points[ Kral,Mogweed, Meric,etc...] then it leads me to my first conclusion again that you haven't read the first book as thet are presented with flaws all of them including the protagonist, infact the entire series is not only magic but also the emotions of the characters[flaws & redeeming points both] & their journey which leads to their redeemption,death & in some cases both.
4] I beg to differ with you on this point[deus ex machina] the ending of wi'tch storm was good & i fail to realise how omnipotency was involved over here[ if you are referring to th Tyr'sil, then it was just a plot device whose background was already told, so where is the question of deus ex machina?]
Even i agree with you on Tolkien's Lotr ending, i disliked it a lot but in thi case you haven't completed the entire series to understand the beauty of the story & all its mechanisms[The origin of the darklord, ebonstone, hearstone, and the ties of all the characters within themselves and the land] so i would recommend that you read the entire series before pronouncing your judgement or otherwise pass me off as a fan of James Clemens & move on pal.
Storm
On apostrophes - they can be used well, eg by Steven Erikson or R Scott Bakker, who at least use it to emphasise differences in culture. Clemens just puts them in almost at random, in a faint hope that people won't notice he's just copying others.
On flaws: Ok, there are some, limited flaws. But they aren't important ones. They're generally incredibly nice, altruistic people, who once did one thing wrong, but which is glossed over by Clemens to comfort the reader. But he excuses these flaws. If you're trying to create a real character, you can't do that. Did Er'ril have any real flaws? He may have killed the boy, but it turns out that actually, wait, he wasn't doing something wrong, because that was good for everyone.
The Dark Lord winning may have done something - but as with everything else, it was superficial. Is every day life significantly different? Is there suffering? Or does life for most people remain unchanged? Read the beginning of Wit'ch Fire again, with the introduction of Elena. Now, this could be a good thing. It could suggest that the Dark Lord is more than a simple caricature and actually has some intelligence, but is that how Clemens portrays it? No - the Dark Lord is pure evil, and he's evil because he's evil.
Sorry, but what fantasy novels have you read? Have you read anything outside of epic fantasy? Have you read anything by Mieville, Vandermeer, Peake, Moorcock, Zelazny, de Lint, Harrison, Leiber, MacLeod or Wolfe? None of them are similar to the archetypal Tolkien world much at all. And what about the magic realist authors? Fantasy is a hugely wide genre, full of imagination. Why shouldn't we criticise authors who fail to use any imagination and instead just give more of the same. Ok, so none of these authors are perfect. They aren't perfectly original. But you don't see anything like as unimaginative as el'vin or og'res or rock'goblins. You see khepri, gray caps, vodyanoi etc.
With that sentence, you highlighted the single greatest problem with epic fantasy - a lack of imagination. It's what allows authors like Eddings to come into the genre to write terrible novels, just to show how easy it is (that was his stated objective). We need more Peakes in fantasy, whose stated aim was to break windows, rather than more Tolkiens, whose stated aim was to tell a fairy tale. Clemens easily falls in to the latter category.
Ah, so it's one of these:
As for the deus ex machina - I meant at the end of Wit'ch War, not at the end of Wit'ch Storm (whose ending was completely predictable).
In some epic fantasy, this is sadly the case. It shouldn't be. Yes, there has to be an epic conflict. But that's no excuse for motiveless evil and a complete lack of ambiguity.
On flaws: Ok, there are some, limited flaws. But they aren't important ones. They're generally incredibly nice, altruistic people, who once did one thing wrong, but which is glossed over by Clemens to comfort the reader. But he excuses these flaws. If you're trying to create a real character, you can't do that. Did Er'ril have any real flaws? He may have killed the boy, but it turns out that actually, wait, he wasn't doing something wrong, because that was good for everyone.
The Dark Lord winning may have done something - but as with everything else, it was superficial. Is every day life significantly different? Is there suffering? Or does life for most people remain unchanged? Read the beginning of Wit'ch Fire again, with the introduction of Elena. Now, this could be a good thing. It could suggest that the Dark Lord is more than a simple caricature and actually has some intelligence, but is that how Clemens portrays it? No - the Dark Lord is pure evil, and he's evil because he's evil.
Sorry, but what fantasy novels have you read? Have you read anything outside of epic fantasy? Have you read anything by Mieville, Vandermeer, Peake, Moorcock, Zelazny, de Lint, Harrison, Leiber, MacLeod or Wolfe? None of them are similar to the archetypal Tolkien world much at all. And what about the magic realist authors? Fantasy is a hugely wide genre, full of imagination. Why shouldn't we criticise authors who fail to use any imagination and instead just give more of the same. Ok, so none of these authors are perfect. They aren't perfectly original. But you don't see anything like as unimaginative as el'vin or og'res or rock'goblins. You see khepri, gray caps, vodyanoi etc.
With that sentence, you highlighted the single greatest problem with epic fantasy - a lack of imagination. It's what allows authors like Eddings to come into the genre to write terrible novels, just to show how easy it is (that was his stated objective). We need more Peakes in fantasy, whose stated aim was to break windows, rather than more Tolkiens, whose stated aim was to tell a fairy tale. Clemens easily falls in to the latter category.
Ah, so it's one of these:
Michael Moorcock said:
As for the deus ex machina - I meant at the end of Wit'ch War, not at the end of Wit'ch Storm (whose ending was completely predictable).
Hyperstorm
New Member
Well you have a different viewpoint on the opening of the novel, i could also point the same thing as in the opening where Rockingham & Dismarum are talking about their past mistakes thats what the difference the Dark Lord has made.
Also if you read Wi'tch gate you will realise how the strands are woven toghether by James especially the origin,identity & intentions of the dark lord but then again its upto you.
Yes i have read a few of them namely Harrison,Moorcock & MacLeod but i didn't quite enjoy them as much.
Er'ril killing the boy was a mistake & it didn't do any good to him or the others infact it hindered the creation of the diary so i'm thinking you might have missed that fact.
Even i'm a fan of Erikson & Bakker but you gotta admit dude they have their detractors as well. anyways i dont think this conversation will go anywhere as your choices are vastly different than mine, but i do agree with you on one aspect "Lack of imagination" is indeed killing off epic fantasy & its likes.
If you wanna give J.Clemens a try then read Shadowfall by him and if that doesn't change your opinion bout him then i guess theres not much hope then.
Storm
Also if you read Wi'tch gate you will realise how the strands are woven toghether by James especially the origin,identity & intentions of the dark lord but then again its upto you.
Yes i have read a few of them namely Harrison,Moorcock & MacLeod but i didn't quite enjoy them as much.
Er'ril killing the boy was a mistake & it didn't do any good to him or the others infact it hindered the creation of the diary so i'm thinking you might have missed that fact.
Even i'm a fan of Erikson & Bakker but you gotta admit dude they have their detractors as well. anyways i dont think this conversation will go anywhere as your choices are vastly different than mine, but i do agree with you on one aspect "Lack of imagination" is indeed killing off epic fantasy & its likes.
If you wanna give J.Clemens a try then read Shadowfall by him and if that doesn't change your opinion bout him then i guess theres not much hope then.
Storm
But it wasn't the simple killing of an innocent that is in no way excusable which would have made it a real flaw in his character. Yes, there were consequences, but it wasn't anything that really has any effect on how you view Er'ril as a person. You're not made to question whether he's good or evil, you know he's good with one minor mistake, which wasn't anything like as terrible as actually killing an innocent.
That's on a couple of characters though, not the general public.There's an implication that it's no worse under a dark lord than not being under one. If this was used properly by Clemens, it could have resulted in a very interesting story, but instead it just stands out as an anomaly in the storyto me.
Of course, they aren't perfect, but they've shown a lot more imagination than Clemens. Bakker's prose is IMO undeniably better than most epic fantasy authors, and both have a decent grasp on writing a surprising plot.
Well, each to his own, but I think they're probably 3 of the best authors within the fantasy genre, ever, and Moorcock and Harrison are two of the most influential authors after Tolkien.
Sell Sword
New Member
Howdy, Hyperstorm! I haven't been around TBF too much lately due to a major lifestyle change (laid off/new job with crazy hours). I have Map of Bones on hold at the Library, though! I'll try to get registered on the Rollins/Clemens board ASAP to discuss...
Hyperstorm
New Member
Sell Sword said:
Looking forward to it dude
& hope you new lifestyle change works out for you.Storm