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Especially for Mr. Wabbit (though others may read)
- Thread starter Irene Wilde
- Start date
Irene Wilde
New Member
Mr. Wabbit,
All I asked was a little time to respond, and you go insulting me with Mary Poppins and Harry Potter!
Statistics can be made to show anything. They can be made to leap up and tap dance across the floor like the little bug in "Alien." So yes, I have statistics too, and I'll show you to them, but just give me a chance.
And again, I'm not talking about ignoring anything or having an unrealistic expectation of a place. No place is utopia. However, based upon who I am, who I know, and what kind of life I like -- given the opportunity and the necessary income (did I not start out somewhere saying I didn't think I could afford to live in London?), yes, I would love living in London away from this stinking heat, close to my friends, and enjoying a lifestyle not possible in Los Angeles. Whew! All that and I've not even started on the Soul-sucking American Experience!
Patience, Mr. Wabbit.
Irene Wilde
All I asked was a little time to respond, and you go insulting me with Mary Poppins and Harry Potter!
Statistics can be made to show anything. They can be made to leap up and tap dance across the floor like the little bug in "Alien." So yes, I have statistics too, and I'll show you to them, but just give me a chance.
And again, I'm not talking about ignoring anything or having an unrealistic expectation of a place. No place is utopia. However, based upon who I am, who I know, and what kind of life I like -- given the opportunity and the necessary income (did I not start out somewhere saying I didn't think I could afford to live in London?), yes, I would love living in London away from this stinking heat, close to my friends, and enjoying a lifestyle not possible in Los Angeles. Whew! All that and I've not even started on the Soul-sucking American Experience!
Patience, Mr. Wabbit.
Irene Wilde
Irene Wilde
New Member
At long last Mr. Wabbit, as promised (although this horse is looking pretty lifeless), I have my response for you. First, let me say, that I’m overlooking the vaguely patronizing tone of “you have this idealized version of London that you must of got from daydreaming in books and films.” My experience of the UK is grounded in the people I know and the places I’ve been. Granted it has been enhanced over the years by the notion that Britain gave us Dickens, Lawrence, Thomas, the Bronte sisters, the Rollings Stones, the Who, and Mott the Hoople, but it was not until I started chatting with people from the UK that I decided to go visit, and it was being there with some of those people, sharing in their lives, that has most shaped my opinions. My experience of England my not be your experience, but that doesn’t negate my experience. Then there are all your boundaries of what is “Central” London and what is “Real” London, and all your suppositions about people living in Central London, and who and what those people are. I have a dear friend, who is not rich, not posh, not rude, not unfriendly, and he lives in a very modest flat right in Central London. He has friends there that I have met who are also not rich, not posh, not rude, not unfriendly, and also residents of Central London. I have other friends who have lived in London, but your “Central” and “Real” varieties, some of them have loved it, some of them have hated, and it was based on where in London they lived, but on what kind of life they were looking for, what was important to them, what they enjoyed. The ones who loved their years in London and the ones who hated their years in London are all good people (and again, no one’s rich, posh, rude or unfriendly), they simply had different preferences and different priorities.
Yes, America has pretty places. Every place has pretty places. London has beautiful places and Los Angeles is in close proximity to some of the most beautiful coastline on the planet. But while America is vast and it takes tremendous effort and expense to get from Point A to Point B, the UK is compact and it is a gateway to Europe. In the time it takes me to get to another state, you could be in a different. I see Britain’s compactness as an advantage, not a disadvantage.
Also, I believe the conversation was regarding the “Live-ability” of London, not whether the US has pretty places. You were also chided my for comparing London to Los Angeles. Well, I have lived in Los Angeles all my life, what else do I have to compare it to. Both cities are large and urban. Big cities have more crime, pollution, and so forth than small towns. That is a fact everywhere. However, big cities got to be big cities because lots of people choose to live in them. To live in the city versus small towns or rural areas is a choice people make based on their likes, dislikes, and lifestyle. So while I might get better scenery out there in fly-over country, I would also lose an awful lot. I would rather risk the higher crime rates and take advantage of the opportunities of urban living, than lose those and strand myself in the isolation of rural America. Not to mention, my need to earning a living, and I am no farmer.
England’s crime rate. Yes, I read those shocking statistics when they came out. Your source is the United Nations, which traditionally holds a very Anti-Western view of things. Even your source says that the statistics should be read realizing there can be vast differences in the ways crimes are reported from country to country. It is possible that Britain’s overall crime rate is no worse than the US, Brits just do a better job at record keep. However, “to the meat” as you said. For purposes of comparisons that made sense to me, I had to got back a few years to 1995. However, the source of the data, the Australian Institute of Criminology, kept statistics from 1972-1995, and the statistics were consistent over that time frame. They are this -- the homicide rate in the US for 1995 was 8.2 per 100,000 people, compared to 1.4 per 100K in the UK, which is one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. The robbery rate in the US per 100K was 220; in the UK 134. However, I believe we were speaking of London, not all of the UK. So -- Homicide rate for London -- 2.24, for Los Angeles 24.49. The robbery rate in London 398.54 per 100K, in Los Angeles 840.51. Is it any wonder I feel safe as kittens when I go to London?
We are agreed that London is expensive. We were agreed on that from the beginning, so there’s no point in arguing that. London is expensive.
Drugs and teen pregnancy. Gee, do you suppose this might be because Britain is so influenced by, oh what’s that big land mass between Mexico and Canada? The United States? We have, sadly, been most effective at exporting our culture to your country. However, again, going back to my experience of both London and Los Angeles. Not once in London was I approached to buy drugs. There are neighborhoods in the Los Angeles area that are virtual drive-thrus for drug purchases. I can’t say for certain you don’t have that in London, but I can say that from Islington to the south side of the Albert Bridge, from eight in the morning until well after midnight, there were no tell-tale signs of drug-dealing, there were no syringes left in the gutters and alleyways, no shifty transactions being conducted on the side streets, and never a feeling that I was in an unsafe place (and having traveled throughout Southern California through a wide variety of communities, I have a pretty good instinct for when I have wandered someplace I shouldn’t).
Britons don’t make good tourists -- I wouldn’t know, I’ve run into very few British tourists in the US. However, I’ve run into a number of obnoxious tourists from lots of other places, leaving as I do in a popular (for reasons I don’t understand) tourist destination. I also know loads and loads of very obnoxious Americans. Tons. Truckloads. Fill a football stadium with them. If I was a Brit and I came here and had to deal with all these obnoxious American, I think it would ruin my good humor, too. However, I will concede your point, and be thankful there are so few British tourists in London.
Next you say, and I quote, “It’s, in my view, a fact the British are rude and cold people.” It is in your view, but that does not make it a fact. It is your view based on your experience. My view, based on my experience, is that many Brits are quiet people with quiet natures. Because I’m a generally quiet person myself, I know first hand that this can be interpreted as “cold” or “aloof,” but that is an interpretation. However, I tend to acquaint myself with quiet, somewhat eccentric, people and don‘t bother myself with the rest. So you have your view and I have mine and the truth most likely sits somewhere in the middle. People are people. Some are cold and rude and some are not.
The football hooligans -- have you seen how people celebrate their team’s victories over here lately? When the Lakers won their last championship, it was a mini riot outside of Staples Center. The same thing has happened in Chicago, New York and other cities around the country. However, our hooligans and yours are tame compared to some South American Futbol fans. Players have been murdered for missing a shot in some of those countries. A missed penalty kick, a bad performance on the field in a major game, and players will go into hiding with their families. The behavior in all cases is inexcusable, but don’t think yours is the only nation the suffers it.
Cuisine -- Fish & Chips vs. Burgers & Fries? I can’t believe you want to have that conversation. I recall a few years ago when I was over in London, the nation was shocked -- shocked I tell you -- to learn that 20 percent of the British population was seriously overweight. Appalling news! Until you consider in America, depending on who’s statistics you believe, 60 to 75 percent of the nation is obese, not overweight, obese (at least 75 pounds overweight their ideal weight). London (and remember, we are talking London here) has many fine restaurants representing cuisine from around the world. It’s sad that the representations of America are all Burger King, McDonald’s, Pizza Hut, etc. You said, “Here, you stuff a sandwich down your face or rest your ready meal on your lap as you zone out to TV.” And that’s never done in Los Angeles!?! That’s becoming the way of the Western world (and aside to Moderator Martin -- still don’t think TV’s evil?), not a way I embrace, but I know entire households that eat nothing but take-out in their own home. I agree with you that it’s an absolute tragedy, because it breaks down the fabric of the family first, and then, by extension the fabric of community and then society.
Regarding your true story -- Ever heard of “Spaghetti-Os”? Had them in America for years. Again, that US-influence being felt on your shores, and for some sad reason, nothing is done to rebuke it. England is not my country and I won’t insult her, but if it were my country and I saw what all this US-influence was doing to it, I’d be pretty pissed off.
As for the rest of your views, they are just that, your views. You are welcome to hold them if you like. My point was, is, and shall remain, that given who I am, what I am willing tolerate in my life in exchange for certain other qualities of living, who I know, how I live, what I enjoy, if it were possible (which it isn’t) I would gladly transplant myself 5,700 miles northeast of where I am right now.
Yes, America has pretty places. Every place has pretty places. London has beautiful places and Los Angeles is in close proximity to some of the most beautiful coastline on the planet. But while America is vast and it takes tremendous effort and expense to get from Point A to Point B, the UK is compact and it is a gateway to Europe. In the time it takes me to get to another state, you could be in a different. I see Britain’s compactness as an advantage, not a disadvantage.
Also, I believe the conversation was regarding the “Live-ability” of London, not whether the US has pretty places. You were also chided my for comparing London to Los Angeles. Well, I have lived in Los Angeles all my life, what else do I have to compare it to. Both cities are large and urban. Big cities have more crime, pollution, and so forth than small towns. That is a fact everywhere. However, big cities got to be big cities because lots of people choose to live in them. To live in the city versus small towns or rural areas is a choice people make based on their likes, dislikes, and lifestyle. So while I might get better scenery out there in fly-over country, I would also lose an awful lot. I would rather risk the higher crime rates and take advantage of the opportunities of urban living, than lose those and strand myself in the isolation of rural America. Not to mention, my need to earning a living, and I am no farmer.
England’s crime rate. Yes, I read those shocking statistics when they came out. Your source is the United Nations, which traditionally holds a very Anti-Western view of things. Even your source says that the statistics should be read realizing there can be vast differences in the ways crimes are reported from country to country. It is possible that Britain’s overall crime rate is no worse than the US, Brits just do a better job at record keep. However, “to the meat” as you said. For purposes of comparisons that made sense to me, I had to got back a few years to 1995. However, the source of the data, the Australian Institute of Criminology, kept statistics from 1972-1995, and the statistics were consistent over that time frame. They are this -- the homicide rate in the US for 1995 was 8.2 per 100,000 people, compared to 1.4 per 100K in the UK, which is one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. The robbery rate in the US per 100K was 220; in the UK 134. However, I believe we were speaking of London, not all of the UK. So -- Homicide rate for London -- 2.24, for Los Angeles 24.49. The robbery rate in London 398.54 per 100K, in Los Angeles 840.51. Is it any wonder I feel safe as kittens when I go to London?
We are agreed that London is expensive. We were agreed on that from the beginning, so there’s no point in arguing that. London is expensive.
Drugs and teen pregnancy. Gee, do you suppose this might be because Britain is so influenced by, oh what’s that big land mass between Mexico and Canada? The United States? We have, sadly, been most effective at exporting our culture to your country. However, again, going back to my experience of both London and Los Angeles. Not once in London was I approached to buy drugs. There are neighborhoods in the Los Angeles area that are virtual drive-thrus for drug purchases. I can’t say for certain you don’t have that in London, but I can say that from Islington to the south side of the Albert Bridge, from eight in the morning until well after midnight, there were no tell-tale signs of drug-dealing, there were no syringes left in the gutters and alleyways, no shifty transactions being conducted on the side streets, and never a feeling that I was in an unsafe place (and having traveled throughout Southern California through a wide variety of communities, I have a pretty good instinct for when I have wandered someplace I shouldn’t).
Britons don’t make good tourists -- I wouldn’t know, I’ve run into very few British tourists in the US. However, I’ve run into a number of obnoxious tourists from lots of other places, leaving as I do in a popular (for reasons I don’t understand) tourist destination. I also know loads and loads of very obnoxious Americans. Tons. Truckloads. Fill a football stadium with them. If I was a Brit and I came here and had to deal with all these obnoxious American, I think it would ruin my good humor, too. However, I will concede your point, and be thankful there are so few British tourists in London.
Next you say, and I quote, “It’s, in my view, a fact the British are rude and cold people.” It is in your view, but that does not make it a fact. It is your view based on your experience. My view, based on my experience, is that many Brits are quiet people with quiet natures. Because I’m a generally quiet person myself, I know first hand that this can be interpreted as “cold” or “aloof,” but that is an interpretation. However, I tend to acquaint myself with quiet, somewhat eccentric, people and don‘t bother myself with the rest. So you have your view and I have mine and the truth most likely sits somewhere in the middle. People are people. Some are cold and rude and some are not.
The football hooligans -- have you seen how people celebrate their team’s victories over here lately? When the Lakers won their last championship, it was a mini riot outside of Staples Center. The same thing has happened in Chicago, New York and other cities around the country. However, our hooligans and yours are tame compared to some South American Futbol fans. Players have been murdered for missing a shot in some of those countries. A missed penalty kick, a bad performance on the field in a major game, and players will go into hiding with their families. The behavior in all cases is inexcusable, but don’t think yours is the only nation the suffers it.
Cuisine -- Fish & Chips vs. Burgers & Fries? I can’t believe you want to have that conversation. I recall a few years ago when I was over in London, the nation was shocked -- shocked I tell you -- to learn that 20 percent of the British population was seriously overweight. Appalling news! Until you consider in America, depending on who’s statistics you believe, 60 to 75 percent of the nation is obese, not overweight, obese (at least 75 pounds overweight their ideal weight). London (and remember, we are talking London here) has many fine restaurants representing cuisine from around the world. It’s sad that the representations of America are all Burger King, McDonald’s, Pizza Hut, etc. You said, “Here, you stuff a sandwich down your face or rest your ready meal on your lap as you zone out to TV.” And that’s never done in Los Angeles!?! That’s becoming the way of the Western world (and aside to Moderator Martin -- still don’t think TV’s evil?), not a way I embrace, but I know entire households that eat nothing but take-out in their own home. I agree with you that it’s an absolute tragedy, because it breaks down the fabric of the family first, and then, by extension the fabric of community and then society.
Regarding your true story -- Ever heard of “Spaghetti-Os”? Had them in America for years. Again, that US-influence being felt on your shores, and for some sad reason, nothing is done to rebuke it. England is not my country and I won’t insult her, but if it were my country and I saw what all this US-influence was doing to it, I’d be pretty pissed off.
As for the rest of your views, they are just that, your views. You are welcome to hold them if you like. My point was, is, and shall remain, that given who I am, what I am willing tolerate in my life in exchange for certain other qualities of living, who I know, how I live, what I enjoy, if it were possible (which it isn’t) I would gladly transplant myself 5,700 miles northeast of where I am right now.
True@1stLight
New Member
Irene Wilde said:
Lol, actually I can atest to this at least as being partially true. You walk around and can see it everywhere. The documentary Supersize Me is actually quite amusing confronting this problem with fast food and overweight Americans.
Thanks for posting miss wilde
I was never patranizing! Do not be so touchy
... I have to respond to all that. As we say in England we may have to "take it outside" though becaues I don't think with my replies it will fit with in the 10,000 max word count. However, I will try If not, then I will email it to you?
For now, I will say I totally disagree with most of what you say ( as i'm sure you guessed that I would )
Anyway, I will compose a respone!
I was never patranizing! Do not be so touchy
... I have to respond to all that. As we say in England we may have to "take it outside" though becaues I don't think with my replies it will fit with in the 10,000 max word count. However, I will try
If not, then I will email it to you?For now, I will say I totally disagree with most of what you say ( as i'm sure you guessed that I would
) Anyway, I will compose a respone!
Irene Wilde
New Member
I never had a doubt you would disagree, Mr. Wabbit. I will let you have the last word on the subject, but I must move on to other things now.
Having gotten some of my writing back into my computer's rusty innards, the muse is again upon me, so I'm going to devote my energies to my fictions.
I look forward to reading, and disagreeing with, your final reply.
Irene Wilde
I will let you have the last word on the subject, but I must move on to other things now.Having gotten some of my writing back into my computer's rusty innards, the muse is again upon me, so I'm going to devote my energies to my fictions.
I look forward to reading, and disagreeing with, your final reply.
Irene Wilde
graydaisy
New Member
i think you should visit n.y. it's a different place to everyone. i live in new york (Long Island), just 40 miles away from manhattan. After September 11th, the police in the city were more strict and somber, but, i think that can be understood. Of course there will be rude people from place to place, but, on the whole i think that, despite the old myth of rude new yorkers, we are a generally kind people. New York is very liberal and made up of vastly different cultures, and many of them. There are no foreigners in new york. You should visit.watercrystal said:Some of my friends who travelled to the US told me that people were very rude, and the police were cold-faced, and that they supposed everyone should talk in ENGLISH. A girl from Japan told about her recent travel to New York, which made me believe that I should be very very very strong and powerful if I try to explain or talk in order to make myself clear.
And still some other friends told me they had pleasant time in the US.
I don't know. Yet, very curious about it.
i've never been to the UK, but, i would love to!
Billy Oblivion
New Member
I've printed up a hard copy of this to take with me when I visit Waterlow Park (as soon as I find someone to hold my hand). I did see a photograph of the gate house a couple of weeks ago in a book called Hidden London. So, I know the song, I've seen a picture and I've read IW's description (and travel directions). It's on my list of Things To Do.
Two extra points for Novella & Silly Wabbit.
Novella: you can't say "big Fannies" to English people. It has a totally opposite meaning.
Silly Wabbit: Re crime figures. Most of recorder violent crime in the London area relates to schoolkids taking mobile phones from other schoolkids. This is classed as robbery and therefore a violent crime. Whilst I recognise that it's no fun having your mobile nicked the actual offence is no heavier than when I was at school and the big kids nicked your dinner money/bus fare. Back then it was calledbullying and dealt with by the school and family. Nowadays it's classed as a violent robbery and the kids are pushed into the criminal justice system where the chances are their misbehaviour will escalate.
Love to everybody,
Billy O.
Two extra points for Novella & Silly Wabbit.
Novella: you can't say "big Fannies" to English people. It has a totally opposite meaning.
Silly Wabbit: Re crime figures. Most of recorder violent crime in the London area relates to schoolkids taking mobile phones from other schoolkids. This is classed as robbery and therefore a violent crime. Whilst I recognise that it's no fun having your mobile nicked the actual offence is no heavier than when I was at school and the big kids nicked your dinner money/bus fare. Back then it was calledbullying and dealt with by the school and family. Nowadays it's classed as a violent robbery and the kids are pushed into the criminal justice system where the chances are their misbehaviour will escalate.
Love to everybody,
Billy O.
Irene Wilde
New Member
A very warm welcome to the Book Forum Capt. Oblivion!
The only ones who looked capable of nicking mobiles at Waterlow were those geese! Suspicious characters, and if I were you I'd keep an eye on them!
I hope a lovely hand-holder comes along for you soon.
Irene Wilde
The only ones who looked capable of nicking mobiles at Waterlow were those geese! Suspicious characters, and if I were you I'd keep an eye on them!
I hope a lovely hand-holder comes along for you soon.
Irene Wilde