February 2009: G.K. Chesterton: The Man Who Was Thursday

[oskylad]

I think I got it this time:

 

[oskylad]

I didn't really get the end though,each one represented a day in creation?

I suspect it has to do with the difference between creation and destruction. The Council of the Days represents the seven days of creation. Before the seven days of creation: "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep." After each day of creation: "God saw that it was good."

So creation was creating order out of a chaotic universe. The nihilists and anarchists on the other hand were in rebellion against order and against God. They wanted nothing less than destruction of the created order.

In Chapter I, Gregory says:

An artist is identical with an anarchist. ... An artist disregards all governments, abolishes all conventions. The poet delights in disorder only. ... The poet will be discontented even in the streets of heaven. The poet is always in revolt.

Syme in response argues:

It is you who are unpoetical. ... The rare strange thing is to hit the mark; the gross obvious thing is to miss it. ... Chaos is dull; because in chaos the train might indeed go anywhere, to Baker Street or to Bagdad. But man is a magician, and his whole magic is in this, that he does say it is Victoria, and lo! it is Victoria. No, take your books of mere poetry and prose; let me read a time table, with tears of pride. Take your Byron, who commemorates the defeats of man; give me Bradshaw [the writer of railroad guides], who commemorates his victories. Give me Bradshaw, I say!"

The Man Who Was Thursday shows Chesterton as an optimist - emphasizing what is right in the universe and expecting the best possible outcome at the end of the tale. Chesterton did not hold much truck for the pessimist who emphasized what was wrong with the universe and expected the worst.

 

[SFG75]

beer_good

It is very funny at times. The duel scene, the chase through London, the first few reveals of the Council members (before we realise where it's all headed), etc - Chesterton's language is (for the most part) a joy to read, his dialogue snaps and his characters do what they can in the midst of all the craziness.

The chase scene through the snow was an interesting to picture in my mind's eye. I was not able to predict that the professor would turn out who he supposedly was. The feverish swapping of police ID cards around Dr.Bull was another good scene, I laughed pretty good at that one. I'm still enjoying Chesterton's humor.

“I said nothing at all,” said the Marquis, “except something about the band. I only said that I liked Wagner played well.”

“It was an allusion to my family,” said Syme firmly. “My aunt played Wagner badly. It was a painful subject. We are always being insulted about it.”

and the next few lines are good ones too.

“Oh, I assure you,” said Syme earnestly, “the whole of your conversation was simply packed with sinister allusions to my aunt’s weaknesses.”
“This is nonsense!” said the second gentleman. “I for one have said nothing for half an hour except that I liked the singing of that girl with black hair.”
“Well, there you are again!” said Syme indignantly. “My aunt’s was red.”

:lol:
Not to mention wit mixed with some philosophical observations in the nightmare.

The Marquis had taken off his nose and turned out to be a detective. Might he not just as well take off his head and turn out to be a hobgoblin? Was not everything, after all, like this bewildering woodland, this dance of dark and light? Everything only a glimpse, the glimpse always unforeseen, and always forgotten. For Gabriel Syme had found in the heart of that sun-splashed wood what many modern painters had found there. He had found the thing which the modern people call Impressionism, which is another name for that final scepticism which can find no floor to the universe.

As a farce, it's a lot of fun. As a thriller, it's nicely paced but predictable. As a philosophical work, it's flawed. But it made me laugh, both with it and at it.

I loved chapter XII. Just when you think they have reached the pinnacle and revolution is under way, the secretary reveals that he is a member of Scotland Yard!:lol: The story is just something else......Syme under arrest....:lol:

 

[Libra]

I suspect it has to do with the difference between creation and destruction. The Council of the Days represents the seven days of creation. Before the seven days of creation: "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep." After each day of creation: "God saw that it was good."

So creation was creating order out of a chaotic universe. The nihilists and anarchists on the other hand were in rebellion against order and against God. They wanted nothing less than destruction of the created order.

In Chapter I, Gregory says:

Syme in response argues:

The Man Who Was Thursday shows Chesterton as an optimist - emphasizing what is right in the universe and expecting the best possible outcome at the end of the tale. Chesterton did not hold much truck for the pessimist who emphasized what was wrong with the universe and expected the worst.

Thanks for taking the time to explain oskylad.Last night there was a documentary about him from the The American Chesterton Society.

 

[oskylad]

Earlier, I made the following connection between the names of Gabriel and Lucien:

It is illustrative that Chesterton chose the name Gabriel for his main character. Gabriel was the name of the angel in the Bible that came to explain the meaning of Daniel's vision for the end times, thus bringing order out of Daniel's nightmare. ...
Gabriel's protagonist in Chapter I was named Lucien (= Lucifer). Lucifer was the fallen angel who rebelled against God and brought disorder and chaos into the world.

Libra made the further connection that

The name of the girl Syme loves, Rosamond, is derived from "Rosa Mundi", meaning "Rose of the World" in Latin, and a title given to Christ.

Another way to understand Rosamond is from the Latin phrase "rosa munda" or "pure rose". Chesterton makes much of Rosamond's red hair, in one case saying

the glory of her strange hair ran like a red thread through those dark and ill-drawn tapestries of the night.

I was surprised (not being Roman Catholic) to learn that rosa munda, pure rose, is an epithet of the Virgin Mary. It was said that white roses in Paradise blushed red when she kissed them. Monks' rosaries may originally have been made with hardened rose petals.

So Rosamond, in contrast to the battle between Gabriel and Lucien, may stand as a symbol of purity in The Man Who Was Thursday. But perhaps much more. Gabriel was the angel who brought the news to the Virgin Mary of the coming birth of the Christ.

 

[oskylad]

We're not told much about Rosamond, but she carries with her an openness and simplicity that are lacking in the duplicitous Gabriel and Lucien. When Gabriel and Lucien were arguing about anarchism, she asks Gabriel "do the people who talk like you and my brother often mean what they say? Do you mean what you say now?" Chesterton says "her face was grave and open, and there had fallen upon it the shadow of that unreasoning responsibility which is at the bottom of the most frivolous woman, the maternal watch which is as old as the world."

If Rosamond is intended to remind us of the Virgin Mary, we can recall that Mary is thought of mostly as a mother. Mary is often referred to as the Mother of God, and sometimes as the Mother of All Christians.

 

[oskylad]

There are several hints early in the story that it is really a dream. Right after Gabriel left Rosamond and we are told that "the glory of her strange hair ran like a red thread through those dark and ill-drawn tapestries of the night", Chesterton adds:

For what followed was so improbable, that it might well have been a dream.

Again, at the end of the Chapter I:

The cab whisked itself away again, and in it these two fantastics quitted their fantastic town.

But the best of all comes in Chapter II, when Syme is enjoying a meal of lobster mayonnaise and says:

I don't often have the luck to have a dream like this. It is new to me for a nightmare to lead to a lobster. It is commonly the other way.

 

[Libra]

If Rosamond is intended to remind us of the Virgin Mary, we can recall that Mary is thought of mostly as a mother. Mary is often referred to as the Mother of God, and sometimes as the Mother of All Christians.

This is true .She is regarded as Mother of all Christians.On St.Mary's Day which is Aug.15,is one of the holiest days.People sometimes fast weeks before to drink holy wine that has been blessed, on that day.

There are several hints early in the story that it is really a dream. Right after Gabriel left Rosamond and we are told that "the glory of her strange hair ran like a red thread through those dark and ill-drawn tapestries of the night", Chesterton adds:
Again, at the end of the Chapter I:
But the best of all comes in Chapter II, when Syme is enjoying a meal of lobster mayonnaise and says:

Caught these too and the last one was the funniest.

 

[oskylad]

It looks like someone is making a movie of The Man Who Was Thursday, due out next year: The Man Who Was Thursday (2010)

 

[Libra]

^I am glad I read the book before.If I watch the movie,I usually don't bother with the book.

 

[dele]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion... I haven't had much time online in weeks!

I've been familiar with Chesterton's works for years, as he's something of a hero to people like my parents. But this was his first book I've bothered to read. I figured that since it was fiction, Chesterton might go easy on the preaching.

I loved the first half of the book. Even though I knew

Spoiler

all the anarchists would turn out to be policemen

I thought Chesterton might use it as a lesson to show how good people can be responsible for bad things. I was very disappointed with the direction the novel took after the dual scene.

 

[Occlith]

I just read this book yesterday - now we can discuss it. I liked the authors style of writing and his humor although the storyline seemingly did not go anywhere.

As was pointed out in this thread the subject matter may have been topical and allusions would likely have been understood by the readers in his day.
I'll check the links posted to find out more about this unusual story.

 

[Libra]

I just read this book yesterday - [I]now [/I]we can discuss it. I liked the authors style of writing and his humor although the storyline seemingly did not go anywhere.

As was pointed out in this thread the subject matter may have been topical and allusions would likely have been understood by the readers in his day.
I'll check the links posted to find out more about this unusual story.

*bowing* ok.