Forum Temperature: Future of literature?

[AngusBenton]

My point also had less to do with society prospering, but the art of the novel. Novels didn't truly exist until the late 18th Century/early 19th. (Right?) I've grown up reading literary fiction (which is quite different from Blogs I believe) and have always held novelists as one of the highest forms of artist in our society.

Even in the US, the power of someone like Steinbeck to affect the way an entire country looks at itself...that I fear is a dying role.

If you are a gifted and imaginative person, in 1940 you might have dreamed of becoming a novelist. Today those talents (because of changing technology, anti-intellectual sentiment, market pressure) may well never be realized in a novel, as the world has know it.

Change is inevitable. I just think this is too bad.

Thoughts?

 

[AngusBenton]

Seems to me that's where you're focusing and therefore what you see. What effort have you made to see media from other countries? Read translated books, watch movies with subtitles from other lands?

Most of the TV I watch is Canadian. Most of the music I listen that's new is Canadian, what isn't is mostly from Europe. So far this year I've read 2 Russians, a Canadian, an Englishman and ONE American. This American pervasiveness you speak of doesn't exist in my world.

And I would love a pair of your rosy glasses if you don't think the (absurd) dominance of US-oriented culture hasn't flavored your Canadian TV, European music and any contemporary authors you are reading.

Yes, your world is quite a place.

 

[ions]

You're presumption is bordering offensive and arrogant to think that the US has seeped into and permeates every culture. It does not. Even if there is American influence there need be no assumption that is a negative thing. Regardless of the colour of my glasses your view is very narrow and short.

 

[Ell]

And I would love a pair of your rosy glasses if you don't think the (absurd) dominance of US-oriented culture hasn't flavored your Canadian TV, European music and any contemporary authors you are reading.

Yes, your world is quite a place.

I don't think ions point was that US culture hasn't flavoured what we read or see (it's pretty hard to ignore the big elephant below the 49th). Rather, the perspective is quite different - the voice of the writing is Canadian or European or Asian (sorry if I got it wrong, ions- but certainly what I think).

 

[AngusBenton]

You're presumption is bordering offensive and arrogant to think that the US has seeped into and permeates every culture. It does not. Even if there is American influence there need be no assumption that is a negative thing. Regardless of the colour of my glasses your view is very narrow and short.

Seeps into every culture: That is true, popular culture across the world hasn't been affected by rock and roll, mass consumerism or anything of the sort. *rolls eyes*

I don't really mean to offend, and by no means do I think it is a good thing, but I would say is a actually a little narrow minded to say that in the urban centers of the majority of the world, whether interpretations have been made or not, there is not an undeniable inpact made by the culture of the US.

Can you avoid it. Yes. It is hard. Can you be an independant voice? Sure. But take a look at the shoes your children wear. You must follow what I am trying (albeit poorly) to convey...right?

In terms of whether it is negative or not...I think there is an inherent reducive and consumerism driven vision as part of the American contribution which can have negative effects on literary fiction if nothing else. Not the quality of the writing, mind you...but the fact that fewer people find it relevant...that it is not a "marketable" media.

If you are a transcendentalist living in the woods, then bully for you, but my concern is for the rest of us!!!

 

[AngusBenton]

I don't think ions point was that US culture hasn't flavoured what we read or see (it's pretty hard to ignore the big elephant below the 49th). Rather, the perspective is quite different - the voice of the writing is Canadian or European or Asian (sorry if I got it wrong, ions- but certainly what I think).

Ell: I would agree with you. My attempt wasn't to get anyone to bristle, but to objectivly discuss the effects of a world less focused on written narrative on the future creative minds who might create that written narrative...

 

[Motokid]

Isn't the "American Culture" the freedom to like what you want to like, and not feel that you're being judged and/or prosecuted for those likes?

Isn't the "American Culture" based on not having the Government decide what's right and wrong, good and bad, worthy and unworthy of consumption of the masses?

The American Culture is based on having as many choices as you deem acceptable.

Why is that a bad thing?

 

[AngusBenton]

Isn't the "American Culture" the freedom to like what you want to like, and not feel that you're being judged and/or prosecuted for those likes?

Isn't the "American Culture" based on not having the Government decide what's right and wrong, good and bad, worthy and unworthy of consumption of the masses?

The American Culture is based on having as many choices as you deem acceptable.

Why is that a bad thing?

You are reading the d'oh of homer? I think that sums up your viability to discuss these matters.

 

[Motokid]

Who is this new guy? I like him...

 

[Motokid]

I just don't agree that America is the cause of the worlds problems. America just provides choices...both good and bad...the rest of the world, and all it's individuals, choose what it is they want to get out of it.

 

[AngusBenton]

I just don't agree that America is the cause of the worlds problems. America just provides choices...both good and bad...the rest of the world, and all it's individuals, choose what it is they want to get out of it.

I actually agree with you. And outside of traditional areas of "formal" creativity (literary fiction, fine art, etc.) America has provided amazing contributions. From Casablanca to Pulp Fiction to Sin City. From The Simpsons to South Park. From graphic design to popular music. Fucking amazing and interesting things.

My contention is that I suspect that if a Hemingway was born in 1989, he wouldn't neccessarily be as compelled to become a novelist as he was being born in 1899. The 1989 version could become an amazing director, or a contributing story editor, or a web developer. I guess my question, as an addict is whether my drug will become harder and harder to find in the future.

Dig?

 

[novella]

Angus, as a matter of fact, there are more books being written now than ever before. Publishers and agents are swamped with submissions.

 

[AngusBenton]

Angus, as a matter of fact, there are more books being written now than ever before. Publishers and agents are swamped with submissions.

I am not talking about "Fluffler: My Decade in the worst job in Porn." I am talking about people who's writing will affect a generation/culture in the ways that say Steinbeck or Salinger or Heller did. Feel me?

 

[AngusBenton]

Angus, as a matter of fact, there are more books being written now than ever before. Publishers and agents are swamped with submissions.

AND....how many of those submissions suck the dried sweat grease off of a dead man's testes????

 

[novella]

Not every book written in 1930 was brilliant either. In fact, how many really were brilliant in any given year? Literary fiction is alive and well and being published all the time. Certainly, it has trouble getting review space in the big reviews, but that's nothing new.

 

[AngusBenton]

Not every book written in 1930 was brilliant either. In fact, how many really were brilliant in any given year? Literary fiction is alive and well and being published all the time. Certainly, it has trouble getting review space in the big reviews, but that's nothing new.

True, but the #1 best seller was often much more literary than the Candace Bushnell world we live in today.

BTW: I am enjoying our banter. It makes me want to be less obnoxious!

 

[Motokid]

It makes me want to be less obnoxious!

I'm sure I can fix that....

Would you say that the quality of music has gone way down hill over the past 70 or so years? That there are no more Benny Goodman's or Louis Armstrong's?

That the more Britney Spears and Back Street Boys there are in the world the less likely we are to have another Jimi Hendrix or Nirvana?

 

[novella]

True, but the #1 best seller was often much more literary than the Candace Bushnell world we live in today.

BTW: I am enjoying our banter. It makes me want to be less obnoxious!

You're right. But I mark the shift as happening in 1971. It seems the nature and goals of publishing changed extremely right about then. Previous bestseller lists were full of Willa Cather, Harper Lee, Warwick Deeping, Edna Ferber, Hemingway, Faulkner (!), Huxley, Pearl Buck. In fact, I would say Gone With the Wind was probably the Da Vinci Code of the 1930s, but it was surrounded by quality.

Then, in 1971, the lists all of a sudden get packed with Sydney Sheldon, Fredrick Forsythe, Harold Robbins, Jonathan Livingston Seagull (crickey!), Ludlum, Love Story , and other total crap.

I'm thinking sales went up a lot around then. I'm thinking the average American could afford to buy books and had the time to read them. Everyone read Jaws on the beach and Valley of the Dolls at home. Robert Ludlum probably flew off the shelves on Father's Day.

Here is a fascinating list of previous bestsellers. I would love to parse this and figure out what happened in the publishing world. You'll see that right after WWII a lot of books have themes of religion and exile. Before the war there were a lot of books about society, social justice and class. Dang. I just looked at the bestsellers from 1900-09 and Winston Churchill had novel on the list almost every year! And I hardly recognize anyone else at all.

Might start a thread on this.

bestselling books of the past

 

[AngusBenton]

I'm sure I can fix that....

Would you say that the quality of music has gone way down hill over the past 70 or so years? That there are no more Benny Goodman's or Louis Armstrong's?

That the more Britney Spears and Back Street Boys there are in the world the less likely we are to have another Jimi Hendrix or Nirvana?

As much as I hate the artificially created pop horseshit that emenates from MTV and pop stations, I think music is such a different animal. However, I am a man of wider and more liberal musical interests than my literary interests. I can enjoy Snoop's Drop it Like its Hot, although I would say that it is a pretty disposable ditty.

There is great new music being created, and in this case, technology helps quite a bit. For instance...I find great stuff through this site all the time: http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/best/

In terms of Benny Goodman comparisons...I'd offer up Beck as a modern equivalent. Radiohead may even have a bigger footprint.

I think Nirvana was overexposed and Jimi was too high. Although I own all the albums by both artists.

Have I just opened myself for criticism? I hope so.

 

[AngusBenton]

You're right. But I mark the shift as happening in 1971. It seems the nature and goals of publishing changed extremely right about then. Previous bestseller lists were full of Willa Cather, Harper Lee, Warwick Deeping, Edna Ferber, Hemingway, Faulkner (!), Huxley, Pearl Buck. In fact, I would say Gone With the Wind was probably the Da Vinci Code of the 1930s, but it was surrounded by quality.

Then, in 1971, the lists all of a sudden get packed with Sydney Sheldon, Fredrick Forsythe, Harold Robbins, Jonathan Livingston Seagull (crickey!), Ludlum, Love Story , and other total crap.

I'm thinking sales went up a lot around then. I'm thinking the average American could afford to buy books and had the time to read them. Everyone read Jaws on the beach and Valley of the Dolls at home. Robert Ludlum probably flew off the shelves on Father's Day.

Here is a fascinating list of previous bestsellers. I would love to parse this and figure out what happened in the publishing world. You'll see that right after WWII a lot of books have themes of religion and exile. Before the war there were a lot of books about society, social justice and class. Dang. I just looked at the bestsellers from 1900-09 and Winston Churchill had novel on the list almost every year! And I hardly recognize anyone else at all.

Might start a thread on this.

bestselling books of the past

Wow! Very interesting. So it would seem that the all corrupting influence of money and an open market led to a demise in overall quality. Seems about right.