Fyodor Dostoevsky

[Jazzman]

I've only ever read one novel by Dostoyevsky and that was Crime and Punishment. Turned out to be one of my most favorite novels and am eager to eventually read more from this great author.

For those who are interested in such things, I have my own personal website which has a section for some of the novels I have read. Feel free to go to http://www.darvell.ca/Reading/Literature/fyodorc&p.htm to see my thoughts on C&P if you like.

 

[Flowerdk4]

I have read "the double" last night. I shall return to this thread soon. My cat died today and I feel very sad. I had her for 14 years. I cannot concentrate on anything.

Flower

 

[Flowerdk4]

Well, I am speaking from my own experience, and relating Dostoevsky's works with my own life, and I probably shouldn't have said "thinking nihilistically" but rather losing hope. For instance, if you have read C&P, Raskolnikov does the murder in order to achieve something great, something above himself, something that will raise him above his current position. However, after he commits the crime, he realizes that what he did was for nothing, that everything is in fact the way it was before. That is what I mean by being nihilistic, that feeling that whatever you do, in the end it doesn't matter, in the end nothing changes. In C&P, Raskolnikov found hope in God and love. Notes From the Underground, in my opinion, presents what would happen if a person cannot find hope and solace in anything. The Undergound Man has lost all hope. It would be a continuation of C&P if he did not find love or God. Our hope, of course, is to be perfect, to always do everything right. However, the Idiot portrays what happens when you become too perfect. It is like a continuation of C&P if Raskolnikov does become perfect in every way. I hope I can be understood, but if not, I'll try to explain even more. I don't know, I hope I don't sound too crazy.

I cannot speak much about other books than The Double and from what I understand and hear from other people.
But would it be fair to say, that the people Dostojevsky writes about, try to change their world by doing things outside, in the world arround them? Instead of changing from the inside?
In The Double, the main character keeps saying he is not wearing a mask and that he keeps to himself. I get the feeling that he is very closed, even to himself. He does not accept and love himself but he wants other people to. When they cannot give him what he has to give himself first, then the double arrives. In the end he is taken away, but I dont see that a negative thing. I see this as a consequence of him seeking love and approval in the outside world and keeping to himself. He is the one who is locking himself up.

I havent started to read the idiot yet, but I will soon.
I have a feeling that Dostojevsky may have the same undergoing them in all his books. It shall be interesting to see this.

Flower

 

[JRakovan]

without a doubt

karamazov is the best...the idiot is pretty good as well..personally, i am not so much a fan of c&P..if you are looking for good russians you should read gogol and tolstoy as well

 

[Crystal]

In The Double, the main character keeps saying he is not wearing a mask and that he keeps to himself. I get the feeling that he is very closed, even to himself. He does not accept and love himself but he wants other people to. When they cannot give him what he has to give himself first, then the double arrives. In the end he is taken away, but I dont see that a negative thing. I see this as a consequence of him seeking love and approval in the outside world and keeping to himself. He is the one who is locking himself up.
Flower

It leads me to read more reviews at the amazon com. Very intriguing. ありがとう/Dank, dank.

Have to finish this dammed final paper first though. @#%&$*!

 

[Rustam]

.... and I bought a book of short stories by Chekhov.

<offtop>Favorite work. Room №6. Did you read them?</offtop>

Early i said, that i don't like Dostoevski. The reason is, i was compel to read this book in 9-th form. So i began hate his books. But my essay was the best on Moscow school olimpic games.
Main theme of essay was next.
I compered his C&M with Stephet Kings Misery. Juri was shoked. I wrote this work, for 6 mouth. And i was very proud. Because this was my first serious work.

 

[Flowerdk4]

<offtop>Favorite work. Room №6. Did you read them?</offtop>

Early i said, that i don't like Dostoevski. The reason is, i was compel to read this book in 9-th form. So i began hate his books. But my essay was the best on Moscow school olimpic games.
Main theme of essay was next.
I compered his C&M with Stephet Kings Misery. Juri was shoked. I wrote this work, for 6 mouth. And i was very proud. Because this was my first serious work.

Nice to see a Russian on a Dostojevsky thread!

Would you like to share what you came up with in your essay about Dostojevsky?

I am just starting to get to know Russian Litterature, so I am very curious. I have a friend from former east germany who also read a lot of russian writers in her school years.

Flower

 

[ions]

Does anyone that has read all or most of Dostoevsky's works have a recommendation on the order in which to read them? I've read Crime and Punishment and I'm about a third of the way through The Brothers Karamazov. After that?

 

[Tom]

Does anyone that has read all or most of Dostoevsky's works have a recommendation on the order in which to read them? I've read Crime and Punishment and I'm about a third of the way through The Brothers Karamazov. After that?

Perhaps Notes from the Underground, its the most universal of his works after Crime and Punishment and Karamazov.

 

[lfm]

the only down side to buying notes from the underground is that it usually comes with the double. which invokes homicidal rage into even the most level headed person. maybe i didnt 'grasp' the point of it, but i found it very annoying.

 

[SFG75]

Definitely Notes from the Underground. Of all the existential works, this is one that got the ball rolling philosophy wise. His recounting of being a government clerk was somewhat odd, but the emotions that came along with it, as well as the odd and pervasive feeling of being sick and encumbered with melancholy, classicly shows the *symptoms* of existentialism.

 

[SFG75]

Fyodor Dostoyevsky

While we do have a thread on how to pronounce Dostoyevsky, we don't have a thread dedicated solely to his works. It is for that reason, that I've created this thread. While I've read Notes from the Underground, I don't have a lot of experience with his other works. I went to the used bookstore today and came out with an armful of his works, so it looks to be a good month of great Russian literature for me.

Just finished reading White Nights and I was very impressed with the lengthy dialogue between the lead male character and the girl who spent most of her time pinned to her grandmother. Their meetings immediately sucked me in and you could tell the friendship was truly something else. Of course,

Spoiler

as it evoled into love on his part, the very ending was a very wrenching thing to see just unfold so quickly and so dramatically. The scene where they hug and she then runs off with her *first* love had me. This fist to the stomach way of writing reminds me of the humanness of Chekhov's writings, only harder hitting.

So, who else enjoys his works? Any thoughts on White Nights and other masterful writings?

 

[Morty]

I would highly recommend reading The Brothers Karamazov, it is probably the book that has made the greatest impression on me. It's a masterpeice.

 

[LoeMa]

In my opinion Notes from the Underground is the very best of Dostoyevsky, and I also love White Nights very much.
So you have already done an excellent choice

Moreover, I would recommend "The Idiot".

Enjoy reading!

Greetings

 

[steffee]

I have only read Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov but I loved them both and am keen to read more.

Notes from the Underground
White Nights
The Idiot

Right, they've all been added to my TBR!

Dostoevesky is a fantastic writer... actually, every Russian author I've read, is fantastic at putting their thoughts to paper, at creating a story, and I love the underlying psychology in the stories.

 

[SFG75]

I agree Steffee, Russian literature is filled with great writers, I can't think of a bad one. You have Nabokov(a transplanted Russian, but Russian nevertheless)You could also throw in Turgenev and most definitely Chekhov. Dostoyevsky and Chekhov truly have the whole Russian realism thing down pat. Both works are filled with such gut-tugging emotion in every page. With bleak weather and given the poltiical reality of the time, it's easy to see why this realism is so powerful in both of their works. If you expand the circle to eastern European writers, you can add the likes of Kafka(interestingly enough, was a clerk & hated his job like Fyodor) and Goethe.

Loema-It's a great one, I agree. Just finished Notes from Underground last night. I've read the first part before, but never bothered finishing. The book that I have has an interesting "afterwards" section that mentions his association with early Fourier socialist utopians and how the work is a frontal assault on his earlier political beliefs. The ever positive "utopia" as espoused by the socialists through the model of Hegelian dialectical materialism is set up and destroyed in Dostoyevsky's mind by the people as part of their human nature. To be different for the sake of doing so and the idea that *self-interest* and *reason* necessarily lead to the best decisions are pointed out as woefully inadequate and untruthful by Dostoyevsky. After his arrest and harrowing near execution(which drove two men insane) you'd thought he would've been driven further left in his politics, but yet, he comes to truly rebuke his political associations. Something that doesn't usually occur after an experience like that. Just something that I noticed and thought was interesting.

Morty-I have that one and I can't wait to dive into it. It's between Karamazov and The Possesed right now. The later interests me as it ha some nihilist overtones and the thought of reading about how a few men influence the ransacking of an entire town sounds very intriguing to read about.

 

[LoeMa]

In the epilog of my Notes from Underground there is mentioned this nihilist aspect of Dostoyevsky's works. Especially Nietzsche refers to Dostoyevsky in his "Götzen-Dämmerung" (sorry, I don't know the english title). It's particularly the aspect of self-knowlegde and self-victory, that Nietzsche interested so much.

Maybe I have to confess why I love Notes from Underground so much. It's because I have the feeling that these words could have been torn out of the innermost part of my heart. Probably this it not a very charming description of myself, but reading the Notes was like a look into the mirror that shows the terrifying truth.

I agree with you that the russian writers are a class of their own. I think, they have the talent to create some kind of atmosphere that fascinates you so much, that there is some danger to loose contact to the real world while reading (maybe this should be the main purpose of a good book anyway?).
While reading such a book you get swallowed and at the end you are thrown out again - maybe completely helpless, maybe with a new point of view, maybe as a new human being

greetings

 

[steffee]

Completely off-topic, though still relevant to Dostoeyevsky. Over at wikipedia, while searching for more info him, I found this...

The Machinist also seems to be influenced by Dostovsky's The Double, in that the main character of the story is both the antagonist and the protagonist. The DVD commentary for The Machinist names The Double as a source of inspiration. The main character in The Machinist is also depicted at one point reading Dostoevsky's The Idiot.

The Machinist is a fantastic film, so I have to add The Double to my TBR too.

 

[SFG75]

In the epilog of my Notes from Underground there is mentioned this nihilist aspect of Dostoyevsky's works. Especially Nietzsche refers to Dostoyevsky in his "Götzen-Dämmerung" (sorry, I don't know the english title). It's particularly the aspect of self-knowlegde and self-victory, that Nietzsche interested so much.

Language is an interesting item to explore. The title to western readers is somewhat tricky as it carries the connotation of an underground "shadow" culture, something out of 1960s America and the world of Abbie Hofmann and the Port Huron statement. In reality, it should be "From a Hole in the wall" or something along those lines.

Maybe I have to confess why I love Notes from Underground so much. It's because I have the feeling that these words could have been torn out of the innermost part of my heart. Probably this it not a very charming description of myself, but reading the Notes was like a look into the mirror that shows the terrifying truth.

You've highlighted why many existential followers generally give him credit as being THE man of the movement. Deep-down, we all see our melancholy keenly expressed in Notes. The very first paragraph is extremely powerful as he goes on about his "sickness" that has no name. It isn't a physical abnormality, but rather, a psychological one that he is passing through and that we've all experienced in varying degrees-some more intensely and lengthy than others. His description of depression is very powerful as well.

...what agonies I went through in this inner struggle! I didn't believe that there were others who went through all that, so I've kept it a secret all my life. I was ashamed.

(page 94)

If this isn't a sypmtom of generalized anxiety disorder, then I don't know what is. He also notes that many people like to wallow in their despair, something not a lot of people like to admit.

First quote
-

I wouldn't want to change myself; and that, even if Iwanted to, I still wouldn't have done anything about it, because, actually, there wasn't anything to change into.

(page 94 again)

and...

But then, it is in despair that we find the most acute pleasure, especially when we are aware of the hopelessnes of the situation.

I know of people whose sanity with life is being in the eye of the storm, or at least trying to create the storm to enjoy. Those lines remind me of them to a "t" and actually myself in desiring to hear about the travails of others at work.

While reading such a book you get swallowed and at the end you are thrown out again - maybe completely helpless, maybe with a new point of view, maybe as a new human being

Excellent point-I remember that Emily Dickinson stated that a poem should shake you by the scruff of your neck and make you feel just about every emotion that there is. I think our Russian realists understood this perspective and sought to take their readers on quite a journey. Dostoyevsky certainly was successful in that regard!

 

[LoeMa]

You have quoted some of my favorite parts of the Notes. And there is an interesting aspect in translation. I refer to your first quote: “I was ashamed.”
In my Notes this passage runs like this: “I thought that I was one and they were all – and I started brooding.” (I hope “to brood” is the right word, or “to ponder”).
I don’t speak Russian, so I can’t compare, what fits better – ashamed or brood. Maybe these two words could be connected: Only a ponderer can get ashamed?

I agree that this abnormality (if it is one) is wholly psychological. In one passage Dostoyevsky talks about men who don’t think of the possibility that they are ugly and could be repulsive to others. I think that this is also a psychological reflection on physical “defects” (or at least on the imagination of such defects).

Maybe this “sickness” that is so intensively described in the Notes could be named “thinking too much”.
Maybe the origin of such a depression can be find in this thinking how the world and the people outside work instead of going out and watch them.
Thinking seems easier than doing. As you’ve quoted: “I wouldn’t want to change myself…”. Maybe this could also be seen as an excuse, because in fact everybody has the possibility to change - it depends on the will. Of course there are limits, but within these limits we are free to decide – or like Sartre: condemned to freedom.

But this man that is described in the Notes doesn’t want to change – he wants to suffer from his desires and not to stop them. Of course suffering could be very useful, and I can understand that as you said, “people like to wallow in their despair”, but I think there must be also taken care that this usefulness of a depression doesn’t turn over into the destroying effect of suffering.
And for me nobody else like Dostoyevsky has the talent to walk on this line between these two aspects of depression. In his description of the destroying effect he shows the reader its usefulness (so far as me concerns).
Maybe this is a fundamental human attitude to feel better when we read or hear about the bad luck of others?!?

You’ve mentioned Emily Dickinson – I love her, she is really great; but probably she has decided for the wrong side of depression?

Greetings