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Gay marriage

Christians consider themselves to be evil too, by the way.

How many Christians have you spoken to recently who consider themselves evil? I think I lost the plot of this whole discussion several posts back - it seems to me from your standpoint that it revolves around the Catholic Church in Scotland. If Scottish law makes same sex marriage legal then wouldn't it only be a problem if two Catholic same sex people wished to get married in the church? They would still have the option of marrying in a civil ceremony and would be no less married, it just wouldn't have the blessing of the Catholic church. I think the dogma of the Catholic Church is set in the Vatican and the Scottish Catholic church, I believe, cannot change its teachings to conform to civil law. As for Catholic schools being funded by the government, religious teaching is only part of the curriculum, I would suspect, and the other subjects would be the same as taught in non-Catholic schools?
As I said, I'm not too sure what the focal point of this discussion is:confused:
 
I think I lost the plot of this whole discussion several posts back - it seems to me from your standpoint that it revolves around the Catholic Church in Scotland. If Scottish law makes same sex marriage legal then wouldn't it only be a problem if two Catholic same sex people wished to get married in the church? They would still have the option of marrying in a civil ceremony and would be no less married, it just wouldn't have the blessing of the Catholic church. I think the dogma of the Catholic Church is set in the Vatican and the Scottish Catholic church

The Scottish government has made it clear that no religious group will be forced to perform ceremonies.
 
I think the dogma of the Catholic Church is set in the Vatican and the Scottish Catholic church, I believe, cannot change its teachings to conform to civil law. As for Catholic schools being funded by the government, religious teaching is only part of the curriculum, I would suspect, and the other subjects would be the same as taught in non-Catholic schools?
As I said, I'm not too sure what the focal point of this discussion is:confused:

I don't know, the whole point of my first post is this is an unprecedented situation with regard to Scottish Catholic education, that's all.
 
Hello CB: Yes, I would imagine that there are evangelical churches in "my neck of the woods", which is a city of 175,000 people who do have what they call bearing witness. Most of the mainstream Protestant churches are less radical in their approach with not much in the way of 'hallelujah's, amens and speaking in tongues". Although I have to admit that the evangelical churches seem to do very well with regard to pulling in the people. You seem to put the Catholic church on one side and the Christians on another. Aren't they all Christians?
 
Hello CB: Yes, I would imagine that there are evangelical churches in "my neck of the woods", which is a city of 175,000 people who do have what they call bearing witness. Most of the mainstream Protestant churches are less radical in their approach with not much in the way of 'hallelujah's, amens and speaking in tongues". Although I have to admit that the evangelical churches seem to do very well with regard to pulling in the people. You seem to put the Catholic church on one side and the Christians on another. Aren't they all Christians?

Well, if you want to talk to one of them I'm sure they'll be more than happy to confirm my 'evil' answer. I pointed out Catholics in my original post because almost all denominational schools in Scotland are Catholic.
 
CB: The evangelical churches may possibly feel that everyone is evil, however, I wonder at your interpretation of evil, although I'm sure even they would think the word evil is a bit strong. There is no one within my purview who I would describe as "evil" - I reserve that for people who are harming others or committing heinous crimes. I think perhaps your outlook is a little extreme so there is probably not much point in my continuing my part of the discussion - you know what's happening over there, and I don't - I just hope the outcome will be a good one for all concerned. It has been interesting.
 
CB: The evangelical churches may possibly feel that everyone is evil, however, I wonder at your interpretation of evil, although I'm sure even they would think the word evil is a bit strong. There is no one within my purview who I would describe as "evil" - I reserve that for people who are harming others or committing heinous crimes. I think perhaps your outlook is a little extreme so there is probably not much point in my continuing my part of the discussion - you know what's happening over there, and I don't - I just hope the outcome will be a good one for all concerned. It has been interesting.

It's not my interpretation, it is however the christian one in the main.
 
To let you understand from the Christian, not just Catholic viewpoint you're evil, I'm evil too and so is everyone else that isn't saved. Gays are not being specifically targeted here. Gay sex is a sin along with every other innocuous human behaviour, no better or worse than the rest.
If Christians think absolutely everyone is evil (and yet oddly do target some groups more than others - you can't argue that trying to ban same-sex marriage isn't targeted specifically at same-sex couples), then all the more reason not to give them veto rights when it comes to civil rights.
 
If Christians think absolutely everyone is evil (and yet oddly do target some groups more than others - you can't argue that trying to ban same-sex marriage isn't targeted specifically at same-sex couples), then all the more reason not to give them veto rights when it comes to civil rights.

You're wrong about the Catholic church attempting to ban gay marriage. Gay marriage is not yet the law in Scotland, something that does not yet exist cannot be banned. They make their opposition to any change in the law clear but apart from that, nothing. Scotland is not a theocracy. As for these other groups, I'm willing to discuss if you are.
 
You're wrong about the Catholic church attempting to ban gay marriage. Gay marriage is not yet the law in Scotland, something that does not yet exist cannot be banned. They make their opposition to any change in the law clear but apart from that, nothing. Scotland is not a theocracy. As for these other groups, I'm willing to discuss if you are.
My bad; "keep not legal" rather than "ban", then. It comes down to the same thing in the end. (Often even before that; if you look at some countries, such as the US, a lot of organisations are currently working to pre-emptively ban same-sex marriage before the majority change their mind.)

And you're right, Scotland is not a theocracy, and Great Britain has one of the most long-standing democratic traditions in the world. Which is something you're rightly proud of. And which is exactly why I've been saying that the opinions of the catholic church (as opposed to those of voters in elections and the politicians they elect) and their "religious morals" (as opposed to the morals of said voters and politicians) should have absolutely nothing to do with whether it's legal or not. The catholic church doesn't get a vote. If catholic Scots want to vote against it, they can. But if they fail to convince a majority that gay people are evil, they can't just go "RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION WAAAH" and demand that the state "compromise" with the church on an issue that, exactly because Scotland isn't a theocracy and the church therefore isn't part of the state, doesn't affect them in any other way than that it makes it even harder for them to convince people that gay people are evil. Yes, in a democracy it's important to take minority opinions and rights into consideration so they don't get steamrolled by the majority, and that applies to catholics as well as gays. But group A's right to think group B shouldn't have rights doesn't hold the same weight as group B's right to actually have rights. If it does, where does that end? Should hardline muslims (and by all means, some christians) be offered "compromises" on women's voting rights, since they have the right to think women are subservient to men? Should neo-nazi groups be offered "compromises" on ethnic minority rights, since they have the right to believe in a zionist conspiracy? Should flat earthers and creationists be offered "compromises" on science education? Should (gasp, horror) non-ska fans be offered "compromises" on whether Madness should do another reunion tour?

Sorry that got long, but I've tried to explain this again and again and I'm honestly not sure how much clearer I can make that point. I'm not really in this to discuss the exact (and, sadly, very far from unique) situation in Scotland, but the same exact arguments seem to be brought up no matter where it's set. So in the meantime, here's a pretty awesome link:

Out Of Bounds Blog No. 13 - Dear Mr. Balling » Out of Bounds

If even professional American football players are starting to get sick of the increasingly strained arguments used by the anti side, it's really just a matter of time before they're consigned to the same dark (and still depressingly crowded) corners as most other hate groups.
 
Sorry that got long, but I've tried to explain this again and again and I'm honestly not sure how much clearer I can make that point. I'm not really in this to discuss the exact (and, sadly, very far from unique) situation in Scotland, but the same exact arguments seem to be brought up no matter where it's set. So in the meantime, here's a pretty awesome link:

I'm clear on what you think beer good and I appreciate your extreme efforts in getting your point across again and again, that however does not make you right.

Two specific qualities about me, I've mentioned them to you before but here they are again.

1. I'm not religious.

2. I agree with gay marriage.

A christian has posted here 753C, a nice reasonable forumite with good knowledge of the Christian faith that doesn't agree with gay marriage. You could talk to 753C and have a nice reasonable discussion.

All I'm saying is hey, gays can marry but maybe it would be prudent to give Catholics a legal safeguard with regard to education, I don't think that's unreasonable.
 
Two specific qualities about me, I've mentioned them to you before but here they are again.

1. I'm not religious.

2. I agree with gay marriage.
I know, which is why I continue to be puzzled that you're making the exact opposite argument, and exactly what it is you think I'm wrong about. I've said numerous times that catholics have a legal safeguard in that they're allowed to say whatever they want; however they do not, and should not, have a legal safeguard that requires people to take them seriously and agree with them. But nevermind, we've been around and around this track.
 
I know, which is why I continue to be puzzled that you're making the exact opposite argument, and exactly what it is you think I'm wrong about.

I've never went on the offensive in this thread, I've merely answered points raised by other forumites and these points have been rather varied. I disagree with the christian faith but I understand the constraints the faith places upon christians.
 
Just read an excellent blog post on The Objective Standard's blog:

"Catholic Archbishop John J. Myers has issued a pastoral statement declaring that the legalization of gay marriage would threaten religious freedom. In fact, however, the archbishop’s claim is a threat to religious freedom.

America has a secular government that is supposed to protect every individual’s rights to free association and contract, equally and at all times, regardless of one’s gender or sexual preference. The Catholic Church, as a private institution, is free to condemn and reject gay marriage, but it has no right to infringe on the rights of homosexuals to contract as they see fit."

you can read more here:
Archbishop
 
Interesting reading through this minefield...but certainly some folks defended their points very well. Random thoughts...I'm not a Catholic but the new pope sounds like he's at least trying to head the church the right direction, people who are dead set against gay marriage need to contemplate divorce statistics among straight people, and what it really boils down to is the right to love between consenting adults...nothing more, nothing less...why do people have so much difficulty with such a simple concept?
 
There needs to be a clear and distinct separation of Church and State. Christianity isn't the only religion to have codified prohibitions against homosexuality and all religions should have the right to uphold their beliefs. However the morality of the State should be areligious ie without regard for any particular religious stance because the State is there to uphold the rights of all.
 
Churches don't legalize marriage only bless and recognize them and they should not be allowed to force their beliefs on the those who do not practice that religion.
 
And might I add "written down" is more human interpretation...the bible, the Torah, the Quran...so many things have been read into these books...the bible doesn't word for word condemn homosexuality, the Quran absolutely does not endorse terrorism...it's interpretation and it is sad.
 
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