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Gay marriage

@Conscious Bob. Maybe the Catholic church is a little more old fashioned in Scotland. Here in Canada, the churches I have attended do not say being gay is wrong. They say gay SEX is wrong and therefore a marriage is out of the question. They do however also preach tolerance and love thy neighbour. They simply say they will not marry gay people in the church. One of my children attends Catholic school (my kids were allowed to choose either public or catholic school) and she learned about birth control and all the various types of sexuality that are out there. They do state that they only endorse married hetero sex, but they still teach everything that is out there. They also give the message to "love the person not the behaviour". Perhaps this is not a common teaching elsewhere.

I think I understand what you are trying to say, I just disagree. I see how far things have come here and the arguments put forth by the naysayers seem like so much fluff. No matter what religion you espouse, "love thy neighbour" is part of your doctrine. It might be worded differently but every religion can agree with that statement. I guess its all about how you put it into practice.

I have no issue with being Catholic and my state of grace in spite of my disagreement with some of their teachings. I used birth control, I had sex out of wedlock, and I count two married gay couples among my best friends. I still believe I will go to heaven.

The world is not falling apart because gay people who love one another are now allowed to legally proclaim themselves married. Its falling apart for so many other reasons that have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with skewed moral compasses. Love is love and commitment should be honored no matter what. A faithful gay married couple is more to be admired than an unfaithful hetero married couple IMO.
 
Landslide said:
Conscious Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic Church still doesn't support the use of condoms, right? They just tolerate it's use?
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They say it's wrong but they can't police condoms, marriage however is, in the final analysis, a public declaration of love
 
beer good said:
I would tell him that as far as I know nobody's trying to take away his right to say and think anything he wants, but that the right to say something includes the right for others to disagree, and that his freedoms, beliefs and opinions don't trump those of others. If he wants to tell people that gay people are evil sinners, or that thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, or that you can buy your way out of purgatory, or that mental illness is demonic possession, or that wives are the property of husbands, or that you can't eat a burger on Fridays, or any other belief once considered core parts of catholic faith, he's free to do so. But others are under no obligation to listen to him, and he's no more being persecuted by the existence of secular laws allowing same-sex marriages than hindus are being persecuted by the existence of steakhouses.
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Well you're missing the point. Children in Scotland remain in full-time education until 16 and if they're in a denominational school then chances are their parents or immediate family put them there, remember what I said about indoctrination...
 
Alix said:
Conscious Bob. Maybe the Catholic church is a little more old fashioned in Scotland. Here in Canada, the churches I have attended do not say being gay is wrong. They say gay SEX is wrong and therefore a marriage is out of the question.
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Looks like you're splitting hairs there Alix.
 
Conscious Bob said:
They say it's wrong but they can't police condoms, marriage however is, in the final analysis, a public declaration of love
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Exactly, marriage is a public declaration of love. Not a commitment to procreate. Some catholics are gay. Why shouldn't they be able to publicly declare their love?

Also in a time where sexually transmitted deseases are a real problem (particularly AIDS) is it not irresponsible of the catholic church to still say it's wrong to use a condom?
 
Landslide said:
Exactly, marriage is a public declaration of love. Not a commitment to procreate. Some catholics are gay. Why shouldn't they be able to publicly declare their love?

Also in a time where sexually transmitted deseases are a real problem (particularly AIDS) is it not irresponsible of the catholic church to still say it's wrong to use a condom?
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You're making this point to me as if I'm a Catholic, I'm not, gender is irrelevant to me and I consider condoms to be important. My values are not Catholic values but does that mean that Catholic values are any less important than mine or yours for that matter?
 
Does anyone else find it ironic that by defending the right of expression of the Catholic Church, Conscious Bob has become the "Devil's" advocate in this debate. :lol:

As a Christian I have always been mystified by why some other Christians are so against gay marriage being legalized by a secular government. From what I can infer from reading the Bible, the teachings and instructions were, in the vast majority of cases, for the community of believers. So basically, if you serve The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph... then don't do these things.
People outside of the community of believers were a different matter. From Jesus' perspective what good does it do to impose a law on someone against their will. It certainly doesn't aid in bringing them closer to God. And, if they are non-believers in the first place, even if they were heterosexual you really can't say that the marriage is acceptable from a Biblical standpoint can you?
From what Bob is saying it seems that maybe it is more complicated in Scotland, because the secular system and the religious schools are tied so tightly together?
 
Conscious Bob said:
You're making this point to me as if I'm a Catholic, I'm not, gender is irrelevant to me and I consider condoms to be important. My values are not Catholic values but does that mean that Catholic values are any less important than mine or yours for that matter?
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Like 753C said, you ended up playing the "Devil's" advocate in this debate...

And no, Catholic values are not less important than mine or yours. But they shouldn't be more either... I'm just saying religion (any religion) shouldn't have a say in secular law. They are free to preach what they believe in (and believers are free to follow) but they shouldn't be allowed to impose their beliefs to everyone in a country.

And I only brought up the condoms thing to point out what I believe is an irresponsible action of the Catholic church.

I just believe the Catholic church needs to evolve now as it has before in the past.
 
Landslide said:
Like 753C said, you ended up playing the "Devil's" advocate in this debate...
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Well that wasn't my intention, my initial contribution was to inform the collective what the situation is in my country and the difficulties without bias, I'm glad one forumite has picked up on this. Don't get me wrong this has been educational, perhaps there isn't room here for compromise and this truly is a fight to the death.
 
Conscious Bob said:
Well that wasn't my intention, my initial contribution was to inform the collective what the situation is in my country and the difficulties without bias, I'm glad one forumite has picked up on this. Don't get me wrong this has been educational, perhaps there isn't room here for compromise and this truly is a fight to the death.
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I wish there could be a compromise. After all, by making gay marriage legal, governments are allowing the civil marriage of gay people, not forcing any religion to do it. That means the Catholic Church (and any other religion who shares the same belief on the subject) can still preach they are against it and refuse to do it. I just don't see why they feel the need to rain on other people's parade...

And if I understood you correctly, in Scotland there are catholic schools that function as public schools. Is that it? In that case maybe they should teach children that "catholics believe having gay sexual relationships is a sin. However, it is not illegal in our country to be gay and gay marriage is allowed." Just explaining the facts and pointing out that there is a separation between religion and state.
 
Conscious Bob said:
Well that wasn't my intention, my initial contribution was to inform the collective what the situation is in my country and the difficulties without bias, I'm glad one forumite has picked up on this. Don't get me wrong this has been educational, perhaps there isn't room here for compromise and this truly is a fight to the death.
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Just so you know Bob, I didn't mean anything derogatory by that. I understand what you are saying. I just thought it was ironic is all. And I think you have a point. At least in this country it seems sometimes like Christians get targeted and even in some occasions their right to expression gets trampled on. I think a lot of public institutions are quicker to suppress Christian expression than that of other religions. Not sure why this happens, but I know it does because it has happened to people I know. Including my daughter!
 
753C said:
Just so you know Bob, I didn't mean anything derogatory by that. I understand what you are saying. I just thought it was ironic is all. And I think you have a point. At least in this country it seems sometimes like Christians get targeted and even in some occasions their right to expression gets trampled on. I think a lot of public institutions are quicker to suppress Christian expression than that of other religions. Not sure why this happens, but I know it does because it has happened to people I know. Including my daughter!
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I know and no offence taken. I'm not religious but it does seem to me, in Scotland anyway, that only one side is being urged to ditch it's principles or 'evolve' as others have sugar coated it.
 
Conscious Bob said:
I know and no offence taken. I'm not religious but it does seem to me, in Scotland anyway, that only one side is being urged to ditch it's principles or 'evolve' as others have sugar coated it.
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I'm sorry but what other side(s) are you talking about? Other religions?
 
Conscious Bob said:
Well you're missing the point. Children in Scotland remain in full-time education until 16 and if they're in a denominational school then chances are their parents or immediate family put them there, remember what I said about indoctrination...
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No actually, that is my point. Indoctrinating children to think they have to be intolerant of people who mean them no harm is bad, and if the church has to ease up on it as society's opinions shift - whether that applies to laws or just popular opinion - then that's a good thing.

Conscious Bob said:
The side that argues for gay marriage in Scotland.
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Both sides being willing to compromise is always good, but when they start from very different positions - where one side has always made the rules and the other has always had to follow - it's unfair to demand that both sides back down. Considering that same-sex couples have been forced to compromise and ditch... pretty much everything for a very very long time, and still do in most places, I'd say the rest of us owe them a bit of compromise.
 
Conscious Bob said:
The side that argues for gay marriage in Scotland.
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Catholics should not be denied their principles any more than gays should be denied their rights. And yes, I'm saying the Catholic church should evolve, no sugar coating it. They have in the past, or we'd still have the inquisition and witch hunts.
 
beer good said:
No actually, that is my point. Indoctrinating children to think they have to be intolerant of people who mean them no harm is bad, and if the church has to ease up on it as society's opinions shift - whether that applies to laws or just popular opinion - then that's a good thing.
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It wasn't at first, you didn't make a distinction between religious and secular morals, now according to you the state should interfere with Catholic schooling, you're not the only one even if you are a new addition in the ranks, you wonder why Catholics disagree with gay marriage?
 
beer good said:
Both sides being willing to compromise is always good, but when they start from very different positions - where one side has always made the rules and the other has always had to follow - it's unfair to demand that both sides back down. Considering that same-sex couples have been forced to compromise and ditch... pretty much everything for a very very long time, and still do in most places, I'd say the rest of us owe them a bit of compromise.
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So if civil partnership isn't a compromise then what exactly is it?
 
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