Great Walls of America

[Motokid]

Please read this then comment on your thoughts about walling in America, or walling out everybody else.

Is this a solution, or just an addition to the problem?
Overly costly boondoggle, or tax money well spent?
Simple band-aid to much bigger problem, or about time we stopped the bleeding?

For me, I love the idea. I think it's about time the statements on the Statue of Liberty were removed, and we pretty much closed our boarders. I'd love to see all the American military personel brought home, and have them based in American cities rather than in foreign lands. People who are here illegally should be deported ASAP, or face some prison time.

There are legal ways to enter USA, and those channels should be followed. Having an open door policy might have been great up through the mid to late 1900's, but times have changed and the world is a different place. Come here legally and in peace and you're welcomed, come illegally and pay a price.

It's time we thought of USA as private property and only those given permission to enter should be given a free pass.

 

[Libre]

I don't want this country to build walls around itself. Sound too much like the IRON CURTAIN and I grew up in the 50's and 60's. I'm not saying that I'm in favor of an open door policy either - but a wall? NFW.

Why is it that people are always for policies that will mainly involve inconveniences and sacrifices by others?

 

[Motokid]

Why is it that people are always for policies that will mainly involve inconveniences and sacrifices by others?

How would a wall along the USA-Mexico border be an inconvenience for anybody?

Isn't millions plus illegals in this country a major inconveinence as things stand right now?

More than a million are arrested every year as they try to enter the US to look for work.

 

[Kookamoor]

It's time we thought of USA as private property and only those given permission to enter should be given a free pass.

You do realise that it's the "American People" who are the problem here, right? It's citizens amongst the "American People" who are greedy enough to employ illegal immigrants far below minimum wage who are the root of the problem? If there were no work opportunities in the US then people would not bother entering. If there's no chickens in the coop then the foxes won't enter the pen, you see?

But, rather than address the issues at home the government prefers to simply put up a barrier that says, '**** off'. Why not just build a huge glass sphere to encompass the entire country so you don't have to deal with the rest of the planet?

Here's some alternative ideas:

- Deal with the domestic issue and have greater monitoring and enforcement of workers and higher penalty for employers who pay illegal immigrants under the table. You might also want to address employers who pay below minimum wage while you're at it.

- Talk to the Mexican government about ways in which they can entice workers to remain in-country, and ways to increase the minimum wage. Greater incentives at home combined with a greater risk of seeking alternatives would go a long way to curbing this issue.

"Something there is that doesn't love a wall..."​

 

[Motokid]

You can enter this country LEGALLY and do what you please.

It's the illegal's that's the problem. And most enter here because the conditions for living here (even at illegal, under-the-table wages) are far and away better than what's available in Mexico.

Yes there are some American's that are the problem who hire these illegal work forces. By stopping the constant flow of illegal workers you solve that issue too.

It would help all the people who are here legally.

There's a common, and widely known phrase....unfortunately Dr.Phil has been using it a lot recently...

"Great fences, make great neighbors"


edit: America has been getting a pretty good beating by American's for building factories and sending business to Mexico.

 

[ruby]

Its not just in America that has problems with illegal immigrants its here in Britain as well.
Its sad when earning £2 an hr is a better cost of living for these people than staying in there own country!

 

[Libre]

How would a wall along the USA-Mexico border be an inconvenience for anybody?

I guess you don't consider deportation or prison time - as you suggested - to be major inconveniences. Again, you not thinking of the effect on others - or their families. You don't see any inconvenience or sacrifice to yourself or to the people YOU know, so you don't see any for anybody.
Motokid - I'm not throwing stones at you. I'm asking you to take a broader view of this than the narrow perspective of your own situation. The position you are taking is very callous. By the way I'm a natural US Citizen, I was born here and both my parents were as well.
You talk about ILLEGALS like they are heinous, felonious, predators. Have you read in the news recently about the many teen-agers who have lived here since infancy - some of whom have won scholorships and Westinghouse Science awards, some of whom have outstanding achievements, who now face deportation? I'm talking about people who have lived here for most of their lives and know no other society, who are going to be deported. One such student went to Canada to get her science award with her high school class, and upon reentry to the US was stopped by Customs and Immigration. She came with her parents when she was three years old and who will be now forced to uproot her life and live somewhere Asia.
Immigrants make up the totality of our population - except for American Indians - who immegrated here themselves at the time of the last Ice Age. I'm not making this stuff up. OK society has changed since the Ice Age and we need rules and proceedures - but we do not need or want walls. At least I don't.

Yes there are some American's that are the problem who hire these illegal work forces. By stopping the constant flow of illegal workers you solve that issue too.

And I suppose you stop to think everytime you buy a shirt or get a hotdog how many of these "illegal work forces" were involved in the production and delivery of that item, and why we pay so little to get these items, as a percent of our income.

 

[Motokid]

So millions a year being arrested now is a better alternative than having a secure border?

I really don't care about the few good people here and there that might be "put out". They are here illegally. I'm sure there are plenty of very good people in prison too. Should we let them free too?

Illegal is illegal. It's a crime. It's against the law. If the few you speak of are that wonderful they can apply for a legal way of being in USA and be welcomed with open arms.

Deportation and prison creates jobs and careers. If that kind of activity increases it's good for the economy. We could use the National Guard to do what their name implies. Guard the Nation.

Those who do things illegally are not going to get much sympathy from me. Why should they?

 

[Kookamoor]

There's a common, and widely known phrase....unfortunately Dr.Phil has been using it a lot recently...

"Great fences, make great neighbors"

Ha! I was just waiting for someone to say this. This is one of the most commonly 'out of context' quotes. Let me give you the poem it comes from:

Mending Wall
by Robert Frost

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun,
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
'Stay where you are until our backs are turned!'
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, 'Good fences make good neighbors'.
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
'Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows?
But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.' I could say 'Elves' to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."

Basically the poem is saying that fences are not natural and that people use them because that's what they have been taught ("he will not go behind his father's saying"). We should be able to think of more intelligent ways of dividing space without needing such boundary markers. It is only cows who need walls to keep them inside, because they are animals.

The most important part of this poem is: "Before I built a wall I'd ask to know / What I was walling in or walling out, / And to whom I was like to give offence."

 

[Motokid]

We have to lock the doors & windows of our houses to keep our stuff safe.

We have to lock our cars to keep them from being stolen.

We have to lock our banks and have armed guards to keep our savings safe.

People are animals.

You can't deny that there are huge portions of the population that will take advantage of any opportunity they get. We've even seen that in some threads here at TBF. It's very easy for many people to justify doing something illegal.

You have to pass through a fence to get into a movie and that only costs $8.00 or so.

Keeping people from entering any place in an illegal manner can not possibly be looked at as a bad thing to do.

I just don't see why taking a precaution, or preventitive measures are seen as worse than doing nothing at all. Which is basically what we're doing now.

 

[sirmyk]

If visible fences are objectionable, there is always the idea of placing invisible land mines along the border. A Great Wall of America may spring some uprising for immigrants legal or not. I do like Kook's ideas, however, which are more appropriate ideas, but I do not fully disagree with walls. There is a reason my neighbors' and I have property fences, not just because of their dogs. Dogs crapping on lawns and all that--there’s some symbolism for you.

As a side note, last time I visited L.A. I should have gone with a Spanish translator.

 

[novella]

What goddamn difference does it make who we let in as long as we keep exporting jobs and have no national healthcare? We'll all be working at WalMart and eating rice and beans anyway.

 

[Kookamoor]

... but I do not fully disagree with walls.

Nor do I, in fact boundary demarcation is part of my profession. My point, though, is "before I built a wall I'd ask to know what I was walling in or walling out, and to whom I was like to give offence." What sort of message does this send? I think it's incredibly unwelcoming and not the sort of thing that encourages good will towards a country. That's something that America needs to be building, not shutting out.

It seems like a short term solution for many bigger problems.

 

[SFG75]

We have to lock the doors & windows of our houses to keep our stuff safe.

We have to lock our cars to keep them from being stolen.

We have to lock our banks and have armed guards to keep our savings safe.

People are animals.

Life must be hell in Delaware.

 

[Robert]

Building a wall is the wrong idea. Those folks risk their lives to cross the border and then happily do jobs that most folks don't want to do, and get paid crap to do it. The flip side is that without illegal aliens, out nations agriculture would suffer.


The problem with illegal aliens isn’t crime, the problem with illegal aliens is the burden it puts on taxpayers. I would like to see the government give illegals the right to work so a tax can be collected from farmers and workers to help offset the burden.

 

[Kenny Shovel]

...without illegal aliens, our nations agriculture would suffer.

The problem with illegal aliens isn’t crime, the problem with illegal aliens is the burden it puts on taxpayers. I would like to see the government give illegals the right to work so a tax can be collected from farmers and workers to help offset the burden.

In a way this has happened in Britain since the expansion of the EU to include a number of Eastern European countries. Britain, Ireland, and I think Sweden, have been the only existing countries to allow uncontrolled access to their labour markets to workers from these countries.

The rural area to the north of where I live has depended on migrant workers for a number of years to work in the food production industry; without them it would struggle to operate. Many of these workers used to be from Eastern Europe and working illegally, but are now inside the system and joined by others who have come over since the change in rules. They’ve got a good reputation for hard work; for example my Uncle employs a couple of Poles in his engineering company and he says they’re his best workers.

However, just because a worker can now work in a country legally it doesn’t mean that they will be treated any better than they were before:
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,1387265,00.html

 

[novella]

Hi Robert! Long time no see!

Also, I would say that I agree with you in principle, but in practice those employers who take on illegals do it so they can pay under minimum wage. That untaxed 'off the books' employment will continue to happen whether they enter the country legally or not. The employers are also not paying Workers Comp, Unemployment Ins., and the workers don't pay into Social Security under proposed 'guest worker' laws, so the whole fabric of US social security (in the general sense) is eroded.

 

[Robert]

As far as I know, only those that pay into Social Security can draw from it, so illegals shouldn’t be any impact. The biggest impact is to our health care system. Ever wonder why it costs $20 for a couple of aspirin in the hospital? Hospitals can’t turn anybody away. Illegals and those without health insurance go to Emergency Rooms for medical care, even routine care you and I would go to our doctors for, and the costs get passed onto those of us that do have insurance.

 

[novella]

Social Security is designed so that the workforce of today is paying for those who draw on SS today. If the workforce today isn't paying in, there's nothing to draw on.

 

[Robert]

Social Security is designed so that the workforce of today is paying for those who draw on SS today. If the workforce today isn't paying in, there's nothing to draw on.

True. However, since they can't draw on the system then it really doesn't matter.

I believe I failed to mention that there is a heavy financial burden on the states where illegals live. States along the US/Mexican border are especially hard hit.

I for one won’t mind paying a little more for my produce if it meant those workers could earn a living wage.