Handle with care: Racism

[direstraits]

What is your personal experience with racism (either for or against), and how did that affect you and your worldview?

Think not only on a global/'intellectual' level (which is normally peppered with generalities), but also on how you yourself perceive people from other races.

Think deeply.

ds

 

[abecedarian]

I've experienced both segregated and intergrated schools..without ever changing schools or moving. When I was 10, busing was just getting off the ground and we had the first group of black kids come to our school for a two week 'trial run' before 'cross-busing' was scheduled to begin in earnest the following year. Some of those kids were with me for the rest of my public school career. What I learned from various experiences with kids of various ethnic backgrounds, is that saints and sinners come in every hue. Skin color is a poor gauge of inner character. I developed an 'attitude' with friends and relatives who hadn't had my experieces and who expressed the idea that 'white is right'..ask my kids, I STILL get mad when they get on that topic. See, when one of them would say, 'well THEY just aren't as smart:, I'd think of my friends who were much smarter than me..and I'd say, "well you just don't know so-and-so!" What we've taught our kids that people are people and that there is only one race of humankind. There are ethnic groups of various colors and customs, but we're all of the human race.

 

[Gem]

What is your personal experience with racism (either for or against), and how did that affect you and your worldview?

DS you know about my background, but for those that don't - I am from a Punjabi (Northern Indian) family. When I started school, we lived in London - about two roads away from Brick Lane, and the primary school I attended was made up of 100% non white students - in fact all of them were Bangladeshi Muslims. Being non muslim and a lighter shade of skin colour than the other students, immediately set me apart. I guess this was my first understanding of rascism/prejudice within races (if that makes sense).
I was saved when we had a new headmaster - he had two young boys and they had to attend the school. Back then I was relieved that the heat was off me, but looking back I feel so sorry for them - they were very blonde & very English and they were the only two white children in the entire school. What did this teach me? That no race was 'safe', everyone was open to judgement/prejudice/racism.
I've never really been subjected to racism openly (the bloke in the pub who put me over his shoulder and said he was having an indian takeaway tonight was more clown than Klan.) but race has been a silent issue many times.

but also on how you yourself perceive people from other races.

I would say that I don't judge people based on their skin or race, neither do I discriminate against them. But at the same time, I'm perfectly aware of all the stereotypes - and I do think that somewhere along the line the stereotypes do have an effect.

Think deeply.

Now that just sounds painful.

 

[Flor]

Now that just sounds painful.

A few experiences witnessing racism, never feeling it... One Christmas Eve returning from my grandparent's house we saw a huge cross burning in a field, not too far east of Knoxville. My sisters and I were scared, our parents ashen with anger.

The folks, much as they hate one another (what ism is that?), were more unified as parents and we knew if we ever used the pejorative 'nigger', we were dead. My dad's father was a lawyer and judge. He had defended some people who were wrongly accused of this or that, simply because they had the wrong skin color.

A friend of mine, while attending Univ of Tennessee, was beaten with a two-by-four with nails in it one morning on his way to buy breakfast. The attackers called him a "goddamned Iranian" and the whole time he kept saying, politely, "...but I'm Palestinian!" His forearm was broken in two places. He left town and graduated from Harvard.

 

[direstraits]

That's terrible, Flor. It's news like this that really make me wince.

As individuals, we abhor racism as a whole. This is, of course, commendable and speaks a lot about our standing as matured members of society. However, as a collective, things are never so straightforward, however many there are within that same collective who proclaim they are colour-blind. Do you agree with this? Do any of you agree that being a minority race in any society is subject to racial discrimination?

And let me ask: how would you even define racism? We know that outward acts of discrimination, withholding of services/favours, etc etc against people not of our race is racism. Would you include thoughts - such as upholding racial stereotypes?

ds

 

[abecedarian]

And let me ask: how would you even define racism? We know that outward acts of discrimination, withholding of services/favours, etc etc against people not of our race is racism. Would you include thoughts - such as upholding racial stereotypes?

ds

I think the problem of racism is a reflection of our natural tendency to group with those we perceive to be most like ourselves. I've experienced reverse discrimination in a small way. When my husband was in a different area at work, we used to get together at Christmastime with the other guys on his crew and their families. There was a super-nice black man named Henry who would never join us, even though they went out of their way to try to make him feel wanted. He'd even been to our house a few times to pick up something I'd ordered for him and to help us move. It was like he had this imaginary fine line that dictated how friendly he would get with white folks. As much fun as we had with those celebrations, I think we missed out by not having Henry and his wife joining us.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

In New Zealand we have a bad problem of reverse racism. I won't go into all the detail because that would take forever, but I will mention some key examples, such as an all-Maori (the indigenous people of New Zealand) rugby team, a seperate electrate roll for Maoris, all-Maori schools, scholarships, seats in Parliment, places in University etc etc. I'm not sure about others, but I find the idea of prejudice against whites just as bad as prejudice against blacks.

I know some people may be thinking that the Maoris possibly deserve these special circumstances because of previous bad treatement - while that certainly may be the case in South Africa, the USA and Australia, it's not the same here. There has never been segregation, attempts at genocide - nothing. In fact, the Maoris killed off the first people who arrived in NZ - the Mori Oris - by hunting them to extinction (but that's never mentioned anymore ).

Personally, I feel that these seperate rules are doing more for the continuation of prejudice rather than the abolishment of it. If people - both black and white - were willing to really live equally with no seperate rules at all, then I think that races would be able to coexist a lot more peacefully.

 

[Flor]

That's terrible, Flor. It's news like this that really make me wince. Yes, as well, to this day, DS

As individuals, we abhor racism as a whole. This is, of course, commendable and speaks a lot about our standing as matured members of society. However, as a collective, things are never so straightforward, however many there are within that same collective who proclaim they are colour-blind. Do you agree with this? Do any of you agree that being a minority race in any society is subject to racial discrimination?

There's an old adage in the South that maintains people there love the individual yet hate "others" as a group or groups. And that in the North, tolerance is pretended while individual prejudices are more active. I certainly can't pretend to be color blind when I drive into St Louis and know the statistics of crime in certain parts of town. I think we're all atuned to the "otherness" of people and yes being a minority in any society puts a person at risk for discrimination. This also leads toward a discussion of sexism and how we manage to get along with one another when one set has more power. What do you think? Do you think anyone can truly ever become color blind?

And let me ask: how would you even define racism? We know that outward acts of discrimination, withholding of services/favours, etc etc against people not of our race is racism. Would you include thoughts - such as upholding racial stereotypes? Abced's suggestion that any "ism" is a reflection of our tendency to group with like minds seems like a fair response. And I would include thoughts in that grouping tendency she mentions. And thoughts manifest in words, so if we control our words and eliminate verbage that upholds racial stereotypes, won't we eventually zap the thoughts from our minds?

Ugh not usually this wordy...

 

[direstraits]

Flor, nice one. Re-reading your earlier post, the story of your father's dad reminded me of Atticus in To Kill a Mockingbird.

But I hadn't thought of sexism until you talked about it. For me, they are distinct and one does not necessarily bring up the other. I think it's because in a society of many races, I'm used to seeing things done more affecting races as a whole.

Can anyone be truly colour blind? That's a real tough question. I suppose there can be people like that. Like you observed, when a large proportion of crime in my city is committed largely by illegal immigrants to the country, you can't help but be on your guard when a group of them walks your way in a darkened alleyway.

Is that racism? In the truest sense of the word, I'd say yes. But usually when one says racism it's something that's really drawn in broad strokes and pretty damn clear cut - like don't discriminate the Chinese chap who can't speak English properly - he could decimate you academically at school. But not being a racist is more than being buddies with people who are not of the same race as yourself.

MC, we have something similar to that. It's called affirmative action.

Interestingly, we touched on stereotypes in our skypecast, which I thought was fascinating. Would you consider stereotypes a form of racism?

ds

 

[Samerron]

Good question Direstraits, especially when you asked, how you yourself perceive people from other races, and to think deeply .

Well, personally I don’t find myself racist, but what I have discovered lately about myself, I’m prejudice. I always tend to think a lot and judge people before even knowing their name. Every being is prejudice in a sense, but I’m relatively more than others.

In every society you find some sort of racism. It all depends as how are the individuals taught in their early developing ages.

Here’s an example in a society I lived in. In rich oil countries, they have a good standard of life, plus the wage for a house maid is cheap, hence you find many houses with maids and most if not all of the maids are low class labor from Far East. You realize the children of the new generation have a racist attitude towards any human from that region (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh...). It’s all part of the developing stage of the new generation. Thus, parents, guardians and teachers to help to remove this racist attitude in a gradual manner.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

Would you consider stereotypes a form of racism?

That's a tough question, and I had to look up the definition of racism to create an answer:

a form of discrimination based on race, especially the belief that one race is superior to another.

If this is an accurate definition, then no, I don't think that stereotypes are a form of racism unless these stereotypes are applied in a way that implies superiority. I'm not sure that I would really call stereotypes a form of discrimination.

 

[Flor]

Flor, nice one. Re-reading your earlier post, the story of your father's dad reminded me of Atticus in To Kill a Mockingbird.

Yes, maybe a little bit there, but Atticus might be more polished. My grandfather took chickens and whiskey as payment when times were tough, which they always were. He once did defend a black man who was electrocuted, though apparently the guy was plainly guilty. On the night his client was electrocuted miles away in Nashville, Grandaddy came home in the midst of an electrical storm and my dad & his brothers laughed and said the lightning was so and so being "fried". It caused my grandfather to sit down at the kitchen table and cry, then spank every last one of the kids. If I ever wrote a short story, this might be where I'd begin, the tired man, unable to travel to be with his client at the end, coming home to a houseful of sweaty kids who couldn't understand adulthood. My grandfather's Smith & Corona typewriter is one of my most treasured things as he typed many of his own briefs. Ironically, he was not a well read man. He only read true crime novels and other light fare. He was genuinely friends with many black men in his town and socialized (ie drank) with them regularly. Uff, enough

 

[SFG75]

This thread reminds me of what "Seinfeld" star cosmo Kramer is going through right now.

**NWSF!!!!!****** *****NWSF!!!!!****** ****NWSF!!*******
Kramer's rant.
****Use of the "N" word***** ***NWSF!!!!***** ****Don't do it***

Pretty shocking stuff, I have no idea what to think personally in regards to his apology and whether or not his explanation is legit.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

Wow. What was left of his career just went down the tube.

Although his comments were highly offensive, I don't think that he is a racist. I think that he his comments were an attempt at a joke. A highly offensive, completely inappropriate joke, but a joke nonetheless.

I notice that nothing has been said about the black men calling him a "cracker" and a "white boy", though. Is that not just as offensive?

 

[ValkyrieRaven88]

Wow. What was left of his career just went down the tube.

Although his comments were highly offensive, I don't think that he is a racist. I think that he his comments were an attempt at a joke. A highly offensive, completely inappropriate joke, but a joke nonetheless.

I notice that nothing has been said about the black men calling him a "cracker" and a "white boy", though. Is that not just as offensive?

I noticed that as well. But then again, I think he should have been more careful knowing that he was the celebrity and people were more likely to remember his comment.

I am preparing to go away to college, and one of the things I want is diversity. I don't have any black friends, and I only have one friend who isn't white (she is Mexican). It's not because I'm racist. It's because I live in an all-white town where any black who dares move here is a second-class citizen, and they wind up moving before long. I simply don't see many people who aren't white.

I lived like this starting with grade school all the way up through high school, and I've decided that I want to go to a college that's different. And in doing so, I think I have been the victim of reverse discrimination.

My mother had informed me, rather excitedly, that I could go to Washington, D.C. to school for free. I met the GPA requirements for this scholarship, and the minimum ACT requirement was 24. I had a 27 on my ACT. I was very happy, as my middle-class family is one of the ones that doesn't have money to send me to college and doesn't qualify for financial aid.

But scrolling further down, I realized that the scholarship was only for black students.

How is this fair? I was significantly above all the requirements, and all I failed to meet were the scholarship requirements for all the other races. If I was black, I could do worse than I did at everything and still get an education. But a black student just meeting those expectations would lose an academic competition with me.

If the scholarship was for white students, civil rights groups would throw a fit. But I've consistently seen blacks, a minority in this area, misbehave in public, even break the law, and get away with it. My mother once worked in a nursing home where they had to have one black nurse to meet their quota. The black nurse didn't do her work because she said her family worked as slaves for white families. They couldn't fire her.

I'm not saying that blacks are lesser beings than whites by any means. I've never believed that was true and never will. What I'm saying is we set the expectations for blacks here, and the expectations for whites are way up there. It's one of the things creating hostility between the races.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

How is this fair? I was significantly above all the requirements, and all I failed to meet were the scholarship requirements for all the other races. If I was black, I could do worse than I did at everything and still get an education. But a black student just meeting those expectations would lose an academic competition with me.

If the scholarship was for white students, civil rights groups would throw a fit. But I've consistently seen blacks, a minority in this area, misbehave in public, even break the law, and get away with it. My mother once worked in a nursing home where they had to have one black nurse to meet their quota. The black nurse didn't do her work because she said her family worked as slaves for white families. They couldn't fire her.

I'm not saying that blacks are lesser beings than whites by any means. I've never believed that was true and never will. What I'm saying is we set the expectations for blacks here, and the expectations for whites are way up there. It's one of the things creating hostility between the races.

I totally agree!!

I don't see how people refuse to think of this as racism. If you are excluded from something because of the colour of your skin, you are being subject to racism.

Try telling people that, though - watch how fast /you/ get labelled a racist

 

[ValkyrieRaven88]

I totally agree!!

I don't see how people refuse to think of this as racism. If you are excluded from something because of the colour of your skin, you are being subject to racism.

Try telling people that, though - watch how fast /you/ get labelled a racist

Yes, I've noticed. I know I'm not a racist, but people seem to think that blacks deserve more aid than whites. It's not as if the blacks are less intelligent than the whites, so make them do the same amount of work I did to gain their scholarships.

If there aren't enough black students accepted to Harvard, it's more likely the law of probability. If only 20% of college students are black, it's not because colleges are racists. I bet you could go and prove that only 20% of the general population was black in such a case.

I'm glad someone agrees with me, because I am very angry. Reverse discrimination hurts, too.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

Yes, I've noticed. I know I'm not a racist, but people seem to think that blacks deserve more aid than whites. It's not as if the blacks are less intelligent than the whites, so make them do the same amount of work I did to gain their scholarships.

If there aren't enough black students accepted to Harvard, it's more likely the law of probability. If only 20% of college students are black, it's not because colleges are racists. I bet you could go and prove that only 20% of the general population was black in such a case.

I'm glad someone agrees with me, because I am very angry. Reverse discrimination hurts, too.

Over here, a lot of recent political attention has been focused on the dissatisfaction of the whites over the unjust reverse racism in our country. Unfortunately, the party that promised they would get rid of it just missed out in the last elections (they would have won, but their leader is a bit of a tosser.)

The worst example of reverse racism here is the national sports team that only black people are allowed in. I mean, come on. You can't argue for this by saying that the blacks need aid - that is just pure racism. They also reserve places for blacks in Universities and Med School, so I could get better grades than a black person, but not move on because they hadn't filled their quota yet. Yeah... fair

 

[ValkyrieRaven88]

I'd say it's actually unbeneficial to the black community in general to give them more help than whites. What's going to happen if they don't have to try as hard? People are going to think bad things about them, for one thing, and they'll be all the worse for it. We're encouraging them to do less than their best, which is bad for a multitude of obvious reasons. And if you let a student into Harvard, even if she doesn't have the grades, just because she is black, she is going to perform more poorly than the others and have less chances of success than if she had to settle for a less prestigious school.

I think that it sounds like a little of a stretch at first, but like you said, it's as if racism towards the blacks is what's causing these problems. They must think blacks just can't do as well as whites if they get extra benefits. And though we can go and prove that there are more poor blacks than poor whites, I have seen no evidence to support that it's because blacks are unintelligent.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

I think that it sounds like a little of a stretch at first, but like you said, it's as if racism towards the blacks is what's causing these problems. They must think blacks just can't do as well as whites if they get extra benefits. And though we can go and prove that there are more poor blacks than poor whites, I have seen no evidence to support that it's because blacks are unintelligent.

Very true. One of the largest Maori tribes in NZ - the Ngai Tahu (who span the whole South Island) - are now saying that they want all of the special priveledges to go away, as they are sick of people saying that Maoris only because doctors etc because of the seperatist treatment. The North Island tribes, however, still want it to occur.

I really think that these racist rules are what's causing a lot of the racism in NZ. If we really had a system where everyone was truely equal, I have no doubt in my mind that people wouldn't hold grudges against the opposite race. Because that's all that the current system is producing - jealousy, outrage and grudges. That's never going to be healthy for a country striving to be colour-blind.