Has a crime been commited here?

[Motokid]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/04/suicide.internet/index.html

Sad story. No winners, just losers. The question does seem to be should somebody else be held accountable for this girls death? Does freedom of speech, and the outcry against censorship mean that websites like the one decribed in this article should be allowed to exist?

I think this girl would have killed herself regardless of the website. Certainly suicide has been around longer than the internet, but I'm not sure if I would defend the website, or the people who own, operate, and participate in it.

If I buy a gun, load it, and hand it over to a person who then put's it to their head and pulls the trigger should I be held accountable for their death from a legal standpoint?

If I know someone is going to kill themselves and I do nothing to stop it am I accountable legally?

 

[Jemima Aslana]

I don't believe a internet forum can be held accountable like that, unless the members in question were situated in a state where it's illegal to not try and prevent a suicide (if there is such a thing). Last I heard it wasn't illegal to talk about things - including suicide.

Heck I've had suicide thoughts some years back, and I've voiced that to a few people. If I killed myself tomorrow should those people be held responsible? Of course not. That's simply silly.

I can well understand the parents' desire to lay blame on someone. It's always easier to deal with berievement if you have something or someone you can take out your anger and grief upon. Be it a certain law or a certain person. However sometimes we simply have to face the fact that the young man killed in traffic carried all the blame himself and the girl who killed herself did so because she wanted to and no one could have changed her mind.

I especially doubt how much blame cen be laid on that site since there's a member(and most likely more than one) who consider's it therapeutic and as a base keeping thema way from actually committing suicide.

I would not censor talk of suicide, we need to keep that debate open, otherwise some people who could have been saved through dilaogue will not be, so let's not have a legally enforced taboo made out of it.

 

[cajunmama]

While I doubt that the forum itself could be held responsible, the article does cite that a member could have helped the girl illegally obtain something, and that, I believe is called being an accomplice (sp?) in a crime and that could be punishable by law.

If I buy a gun, load it, and hand it over to a person who then put's it to their head and pulls the trigger should I be held accountable for their death from a legal standpoint?

Actually, I think you can in some states, its called assisted suicide and the person who assists can be held accountable by law. From a moral standpoint, I know I would feel very guilty if I somehow, even unknowingly, played a part in someone's suicide.

In my opinion, suicide is the single most selfish thing a person can do. They only end their own problems giving no thought to the mess they leave behind. Granted, these people are sick, but I have been sick, too, and the thoughts that stopped me from even contemplating suicide were of the devastation I would leave in the lives of my family members, especially my children.

 

[Motokid]

I don't think "sick" even begins to scratch the surface of what suicidal people are. It's not your garden variety depression, or even a deep depression. The person that commits suicide has levels of depression that the average person can not even conceive of.

Is it selfish? Yes it is, but there's so, so much more. People talk about Kurt Cobain and how stupid and silly he was for taking his life. When you think about it, he really is the poster boy for how the average person can not conceive of what's going on in the mind of a suicidal person.

 

[Kookamoor]

I don't think "sick" even begins to scratch the surface of what suicidal people are. It's not your garden variety depression, or even a deep depression. The person that commits suicide has levels of depression that the average person can not even conceive of.

Any depression is serious and needs to be treated as an illness. I think there is not nearly enough understanding among the general community about what depression means and how to react to the news that someone is ill. I've had friends go through it, and I don't know how close to suicide they are/were. It's not about the 'extent' of the depression - many people have considered suicide while they were in depression, but what causes people to actually attempt it varies. What *is* important is that their cries for help are heard. I think part of the problem with teenagers is that these may be misconstrued as 'teen angst' or puberty blues. It all comes back to community awareness and realising that you can't tell someone with depression to 'snap out of it' any more than you can tell someone with cancer to 'deal with it'.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

One of my friends had her depression brushed off as 'teen angst'. The fact that her doc refused to send her onwards in the system got her 5 years in hell on the verge of developing schizophrenia. Talk about a lack of knowledge about the issue, and from a doctor no less. For obvious reasons she doesn't trust doctors' judgements a whole lot.

As for myself: I've been on the brink of suicide 3 times. And to cajunmam who thinks it's selfish of people to off themselves I will say this: In the objective point of view... yes I agree with you. It hurts a lot of people and will thus make the person 'selfish'. But, and that's a very big BUT mind you, that person will not realise that. A person who is on the brink of suicide does not know it will hurt others if they leave this world. If they knew in their hearts it would hurt people if they left then they'd still have something to cling to and thus wouldn't off themselves. Suicide happens when, for whatever reasons, a person feels there is nothing for them in life.

An additional point to that is: no matter how much my friend may tell me that my parents love me it won't make my heart believe it, my heart needs to feel it. It doesn't matter that I rationally knew that I'm loved - it was not my rationale that wanted to kill myself, it was the cold and barren heart that felt no remaining links to this world.

I chickened out before I actually managed to cut deep enough. For which I'm mostly thankful today.

Another point when it comes to thinking of those you will leave behind: Just how long can a person live for others? I don't know. I spent several years not living for me, but only living for those who would miss me if I died. I had no joy in life, I had no fun. I hardly even remember any joy or happiness from the past 10 years of my life. I know for a fact that I've smiled many times, but I don't remember ever feeling happy. This hasn't changed. I've been fighting to put some value into my life for years now. Not just value in that I'm worth something to others, but some value in the fact that my life is worth something to me - it's not working very well, I'll admit. All it takes is one evening that ended on a wrong note and I'm back to contemplating suicide.

I have lived so much for others, put others ahead of me so much that in order to save one dude from his own depression I suffered two nervous breakdowns because I was not fit to help anyone - I couldn't even help myself. So anyone telling me that I'm selfish to leave this life because I'll hurt so many if I do really needs to realise that anyone contemplating suicide is letting everyone else be selfish.

Let me put it this way. You have a little dog. The little doggy gets run over by a car and loses two legs. You love your little dog so you really want him to stay alive to continue being loved by you. But without half his legs the poor dog won't actually *have* a life. Yo will have to let him go and let the vet put him down.

It is not much different from my situation and the situation of anyone else in the black hole that is depression. I have no life - not in the 'geek' sense of the word, but simply because I don't feel I have anything real to live for. The past three years I've been building up what I live for with a basis on the studies that I love. I really love my studies so I started out living for the enjoyment of studying. It was a place to start and then I could build friendships and a real life up around me. It hasn't worked overly well, I still have a severe depression, I still contemplate suicide far too many times a month for it to be healthy, but I hold on. I have yet to figure out exactly why, possibly because I'm not really that keen on dying though I'm about as keen on living.

So I'm balancing right now. All I can do is hope that whatever will push me towards living will come before whateve rwill push me towards dying.

 

[Motokid]

Pretty intense post Jemima. As a person who's had a family member decide to "check out", I can tell you that while those around you may never know how close they were to losing you, that there are many who would not only be shocked by your death, but genuinely saddened and heart broken. None of us are ever fully capable of knowing exactly how many people really care about us. You may think it's few to none, but the reality is the numbers are usually way bigger than you think or will ever know. I've been to enough funerals in the last few years to know that.

Depression and suicide are totally mis-represented in the seriousness of how society views them. Alcoholism, drug addiction, anorexia, depression, and suicidal thoughts should be thought of as diseases and not choices. People do not chose to end thier life as much as feel they no other option. It's not something the non-suicidal person can fully understand. Everybody having a suicidal thought once or twice in their life is normal. Following through with it signals that the disease was far far stronger in this person than anybody around was able to discover. In that sense it is just like cancer. Left undetected, and untreated long enough, and the battle will surely be lost with dire consequences.

Jemima, I may be a few 1000 miles away and not know you know you, but I'm glad you're here. You have brought some fire and spunk into TBF, and I for one appreciate your being here. So be sure to add one more person to your list of people that care. That would be me

 

[Scottishduffy]

As for myself: I've been on the brink of suicide 3 times. And to cajunmam who thinks it's selfish of people to off themselves I will say this: In the objective point of view... yes I agree with you. It hurts a lot of people and will thus make the person 'selfish'. But, and that's a very big BUT mind you, that person will not realise that. A person who is on the brink of suicide does not know it will hurt others if they leave this world. If they knew in their hearts it would hurt people if they left then they'd still have something to cling to and thus wouldn't off themselves. Suicide happens when, for whatever reasons, a person feels there is nothing for them in life.

Yes, Thoroughly agree with that point. Beautifully worded post Jemima. As someone else who as also been THATCLOSE to committing suicide trust me I understand. When I was at those two points in time, it honestly felt as if the whole world was dark. No one cared for me, I had no friends at all. I acknowledged that my parents cared for me, but I honestly thought I would be helping them. "Sure, they *think* they love me. But they don't know me.... they don't know what sort of mess they got stuck with...." I thought that in the long run they would be better. They would no longer have to worry about me or my issues, they wouldn't have to waste money for my college (which I didn't deserve).

Starting at about 14 years old I had severe depression. I had a raging Eating Disorder for years, starving myself to 88 pounds. I was into self mutilation as a means to punish myself for being a horrible person. I seriously came to the point of suicide twice. Once at sixteen I sat there with all of my parents blood pressure pills pondering life..... but I would not want them to live with the guilt that I had used their medication to kill myself. I was killing myself to help them (in my mind), and wanted their suffering to be as little as possible. My parents never made me feel unwanted or unloved, I just could not trust my own mind. My perception of things was completely distorted. I had another opportunity at 18 while sitting late at night with a loaded rufle and trying to build up nerve. At that point I just made a deal with myself. I set a date that if life wasn't at all better by that point, I could kill myself and say I had least *tried* to give life a shot.

I never really thought about others besides my parents. I had no friends to speak of. I was a nanny, and the kids loved me but I figured they would be better without me around. The younger of my two girls was mimicking my anorexic behavior and I couldn't handle that. They would surely be better without me around. I thought my parents would have an easier life without me. Then, No one else would notice I was gone. People could tell me they loved me, that I was too thin, that I was actually worth something. I never believed it. My own mind spent all day telling me I was worthless. It took some serious doing to get over all this. Yet, I think part of it all will always be lurking in the back of mind. Waiting for the proper time to leap forward again. I'm not sure I will ever get rid of it all completely, but I think I have learned to deal with it much better.

I still deal with occassional depression though not as severe as before. I still deal with the Eating disorder, that's the big one. Looking back on it all I am happy I came out of it with relatively little damage done. I am thankful the scars I carved into my legs have faded. I am glad I suffered no permanent damage to my heart. One or two fo my friends who know about my past find it ironic I'm a nurse considering this past. One of my friends refers to me as a "Wounded Healer", I sort of like that. I suppose if I can't fix myself I may as well get my kicks fixing others until the great puzzle I call myself works itself out.

Hmm.. already I'll hit the submit button but part of me is already getting regretting it.. I really never speak with anyone in my curent life about this. I hide it as well as I can. I still think others will think less of me if they know.

 

[geneviv]

I am little confused about the Gonzalez's stance on this.

"The knowledge, the tools, their psychological encouragement. ... She was led to her death," Mike Gonzales said.

Then at the end of the article

"That's brainwashing. And they are not being held responsible."

So what's going on here is he feels the group provided all the information that she needed to perform her suicide and encouraged her to do it. But they are not holding the site responsible. Usually I feel like people are being ridiculous about the evils of the internet but sites like this and those Ana-Mia groups make me question my position.

If she had said that thing about her stomach acid in front of her physician she would be getting medical assistance. Instead she posted it in a forum and now she's dead.

 

[Scottishduffy]

The reasons people use those forums are mainly because they feel more comfortable there. The internet provides anonymity. These groups have people with similar experiences, and though processes who bond together. The feel as if they are their own secret society and band together when they sense the rest of society may condemn their thoughts. If you have tried to invade a forum like this, they are a VERY tight bunch.

Now if a group member actually provided her with the substance she used to kill herself, then there is a case there. However, if she already had the ideas in her mind but solely went there to discusss, then there is no case.

Yes this girl shoudl have sought professional help. Obviously she was seriously depressed. However, I am not sure if the forum is to blame. I was formerly a member of one a few of those Ana-Mia forums you discussed. The whole charm of it was being able to say anythng I wanted, to discuss my ups and downs and not be judged. I am still on the fence regarding the ethics of these forums. It is such a touchy and dangerous subject. For me, it was useful.

Sometimes, you don't want people to jump on you, assuming you are nuts, and demanding you get psychiatric help. Perhaps, you just aren't ready for that. Mainly, I just wanted to get my thoughts out there. I went to the Eating Disorder forums because I knew everyone else was just like me. I could say what I wished and not be judged if I was in a particularly bad place at the moment. I just needed to get my feelings out into the open before they ate me up inside.. The forums allowed me to do that in a completely anyonymous setting without fear of repercussion. There is alot to be said by about having such an outlet. A safe place to discuss it all. It was almost like informal group therapy at times, just knowing you aren't the only one. You aren't *that* messed up. I could be in recovery, or I could be struggling, and either way it was fine.

Yes, there is dangerous information lingering around these suicide and ED groups.... but it is matter of personal choice there. Also, each of these forums is different. Some are mild, while others are quite extreme. The larger danger of these forums is that they 'normalize ' the thought processes. Yes, it is fabulous to know you aren't alone there. However, after a while..... talking with so many people, You almost begin to feel as if it is entirely normal to feel that way. Some forums do romanticize and almost encourage certain behaviors. These sites can be dangerous, especially for younger teens.

I don't know which way to think on this. Both sides of this argument have valid points. Though, solely from personal experience I must lean towards that famous shield of "first amendment rights".

 

[geneviv]

My problem with these sites is that they are started in order to specifically promote the 'AnaMia lifestyle.' To me there is a clear difference between a site that focuses on 'Ana-mia' rather than anorexia/bulimia. Mainly I question intent and responsibility.

Since everyone will side with freedom of speech allow me to play devil's advocate? The person who constructed this site is responsible for it because he created it. He is certainly not responsible for the people visiting his site but he is still responsible for the site in it self. And yet he does not regulate posts that deal with actual plans of suicide. If a member is freely offering destructive advice to another member he could easily ban that person. But he doesn't.

The first amendment allows this guy to create a site about what ever he damn well pleases. I'm not arguing that. But the first amendment pretty much stops right there. Technically, citing freedom of expression does not guarantee someone immunity if it can be seen that the result of this expression incited a crime.

 

[Ell]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/04/suicide.internet/index.html

I think this girl would have killed herself regardless of the website.

I strongly disagree with this statement. The whole notion of suicide lines and crisis lines refutes it. When people are depressed and suicidal, they feel there is no other solution. It's like a big black hole that is all-consuming. When someone gets to this point, they need help - one day at a time - because they can't see much beyond the pain of the present. The purpose of suicide/crisis lines is to get people to hold on just one more day and seek help. And while they get help (therapy or whatever), they need just one reason to hold on for that day, then another day, and another. It can be a long and painful road - not easy for someone who hasn't experienced this to understand. But I digress.

What suicidal people do not need is someone discussing how-to/best-choice suicide methods with them that will only serve to fuel their obsessive thoughts (and believe me, they do become obssessive). They do, however, need to talk about their suicidals thoughts. These are two entirely different things. From the article, I'm not sure that anyone really talked to her about anything other than suicide methods. If this is the case, then although they might not be legally responsible, in my mind, they are morally responsible.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

I agree with geneviv and Ell on this one (/brilliant/ post by the way, Ell. I loved the last sentence).

There is a big difference between a forum where people can go to discuss problems and get support, and a forum where people are instructed on how to kill themselves, and even get help to do so. There would not be a problem here if the people on that forum had encouraged her to keep on going, and given her support during her ordeal, but instead the only support she got was from members helping her to finalise her plans. I actually felt disgusted when I read this. I would no be able to live with myself if I was one of those members on the board and did not try and help this obviously sick girl.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

I agree with geneviv and Ell on this one (/brilliant/ post by the way, Ell. I loved the last sentence).

There is a big difference between a forum where people can go to discuss problems and get support, and a forum where people are instructed on how to kill themselves, and even get help to do so. There would not be a problem here if the people on that forum had encouraged her to keep on going, and given her support during her ordeal, but instead the only support she got was from members helping her to finalise her plans.

Do we know this? Do we know that none of them actually talked to her about going on and not quitting? Didn't seem to me like that option was excluded at all. As I see it that forum is no different than your local Black Metal clique. Heck, *I* could tell you how to most efficiently kill yourself, why do I know this? Because that info is very very easy to find, and I found that info long before I had even begun considering suicide myself. That means that as a mere preteen I already knew of these most efficient ways.

As I see it the forum is no more criminal than any group of friends IRL. UNLESS some of them actively supplied her with the tools, knowing what she was going to do, then it might be against some laws as far as I can tell. But talking about suicide and methods thereof should not be a crime. I know someone who considered suicide but gave up when she realised how much some methods hurt, how others would be a terrible mess for others to clean up, and how the most painless of them often has a rather high 'failrate' exactly because they become less efficient in all the comfortability. She didn't want to put herself through it, she'd rather put herself through the hell that she was living.

I myself chickened with the knife in my arm. Not because it hurt - it did but not as much as I'd expected - but because I realised I didn't really want to die. I didn't want to live, but dying wasn't really all that attractive either, so I kept pushing through that grey non-existence. I don't have much more will to live now than back then, but now I've gotten into a habit of living... and so I remain alive. Sooner or later something's gonna happen that'll make my existence into a life, but until then I'll just plod along like I've always done.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

Heck, *I* could tell you how to most efficiently kill yourself, why do I know this? Because that info is very very easy to find, and I found that info long before I had even begun considering suicide myself. That means that as a mere preteen I already knew of these most efficient ways.

Finding out methods is easy, yes, but getting help to finalise your plans, to tailor it to your needs? This girl needed help to get through her sickness, not help with killing herself. I really don't know how that person lives with herself knowing than instead of lending the obviously sick girl a helping hand, she basically handed her the pills.

As I see it the forum is no more criminal than any group of friends IRL.

I'm not sure what it means to be a friend where you live, Jemima, but here that is /definitely/ not what we would call friends.

But talking about suicide and methods thereof should not be a crime.

Talking should not be a crime, no, not when it is about talking her through her angst and trying to help her through her time of need. But talking about how she should kill herself is going a bit too far, in my opinion. Screw freedom of speech. That person crossed the boundaries, as I see it, and they are definately morally responsible, if not legally.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

That may be so, but everyone here is very quick to assume that no one talked to the girl about her angst and her issues. Do we know this? No. I simply refuse to believe that she got onto the forum, asked her question, got her answer and did it. She had been communicating with the people in there for some weeks as I understand it, plenty of time for talking. I want to see every post and PM exchange she was involved in before I pass judgment over that forum.

If it's true that all she got was 'here's how to go about it' then I'll agree that some people could possibly be held accountable, but not the forum itself.

A group of friends where I live is this: a forum where you can talk about things, some to a deeper degree than others. I use the word forum deliberately. To criminalise the forum is like criminalising the street in which a conversation about suicide took place. The people might be guilty of not trying to prevent it, then again perhaps they did try, then what are we gonna do? Convict them for not trying hard enough?

Until I see proof that they are in fact guilty of not trying to prevent her I will not condemn them.

On a side-note: I've been suicidal myself. If someone had come to me asking about suicide during the time when I honestly thought death was better than life, I probably wouldn't prevent them either, I'd probably be thinking: "Wow, she has the guts to do it...." If that forum's patrons are all more or less mentally unstable you can hardly sue them for not being sane - well you can, but it brings about an entirely different issue.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

That may be so, but everyone here is very quick to assume that no one talked to the girl about her angst and her issues. Do we know this? No. I simply refuse to believe that she got onto the forum, asked her question, got her answer and did it. She had been communicating with the people in there for some weeks as I understand it, plenty of time for talking. I want to see every post and PM exchange she was involved in before I pass judgment over that forum.

If it's true that all she got was 'here's how to go about it' then I'll agree that some people could possibly be held accountable, but not the forum itself.

A group of friends where I live is this: a forum where you can talk about things, some to a deeper degree than others. I use the word forum deliberately. To criminalise the forum is like criminalising the street in which a conversation about suicide took place. The people might be guilty of not trying to prevent it, then again perhaps they did try, then what are we gonna do? Convict them for not trying hard enough?.

I was talking about the senior member who was said to have helped to finalise her plans. I don't think that the forum should be held responsible, although I think that anyone on there who knew about this and didn't try to help should be mighty ashamed.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

Anyone on that forum will likely have their own problems, and thus I will not hold them responsible for 'should have helped'. See there was this guy in my life some years back who really needed me, I prevented him from suicide, and you know what? Now I regret having done that for it caused me two nervous breakdowns after which I finally realised that I could not help this guy without killing myself slowly. I said goodbye - I had to.

I would assume that people who frequent a suicide forum are generally all in need of help, thus I don't believe any of them are in a fit state of mind to make calls of judgment that will suit any normal person. I call temporary insanity on their behalf. I know what it's like to be in the situation.

 

[Motokid]

If anything, a place that has people with common thoughts could give temporary comfort. "Hey, there's all these other people with problems just like me. Maybe I'll converse with them a while, ask some questions...."

Who knows, the very website that is being accused of something in this case could also be responcible for "saving" the lives of others who stumbled across the place and somebody, or something there changed their mind, or caused them to hold off long enough to get help elsewhere.

There's always two sides to the story. Anybody remember the parents who tried to sue Judas Priest and/or Ozzy for their childs suicide?

There may always be outside influences where some kind of "blame" could be laid. Getting fired, getting dumped, death of a friend or loved one.... If the last straw in someones life is getting fired from their job should the comapny they worked for be held accountable?

While this girl may have frequented a particular website I really don't think it can be held accountable for anything. At least not with the limited evidence we've been given in this article.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

Anyone on that forum will likely have their own problems, and thus I will not hold them responsible for 'should have helped'. See there was this guy in my life some years back who really needed me, I prevented him from suicide, and you know what? Now I regret having done that for it caused me two nervous breakdowns after which I finally realised that I could not help this guy without killing myself slowly. I said goodbye - I had to.

You said goodbye, yes, but you didn't help him to kill himself. Totally different.

I would assume that people who frequent a suicide forum are generally all in need of help, thus I don't believe any of them are in a fit state of mind to make calls of judgment that will suit any normal person. I call temporary insanity on their behalf. I know what it's like to be in the situation.

I don't believe that this can be used as an excuse. What that member did (if you believe the article) is inexcusable, IMHO. If they are in a fit enough state to tailor someone's death, then I think that they are in a good enough state to choose to not help this girl kill herself.

I guess that we will just have to leave this until more evidence presents itself, but to my mind what that member did is not acceptable in the slightest, and to me, that member has the death of another human being on her hands.