Is Ethanol our ticket out of The Middle East?

[Motokid]

Ethanol clicky

Instead of coming exclusively from corn or sugar cane as it has up to now, thanks to biotech breakthroughs, the fuel can be made out of everything from prairie switchgrass and wood chips to corn husks and other agricultural waste.

This is great stuff here.
Grown and produced right here in the good old USofA. Self sufficient America? Wow. Literally from recycled materials that are all easily available, and less pollutive. Plus it apparently could work in most internal combustion engines.

 

[The waveguide]

This is great stuff here.
Grown and produced right here in the good old USofA. Self sufficient America? Wow. Literally from recycled materials that are all easily available, and less pollutive. Plus it apparently could work in most internal combustion engines.

USofA could already long time ago start using altermative fuel (trains, for example, are driven by electricity which means less polluting and cheap!).
The main problem is that the US government encourages petrol. Have a look on the petrol prices across the world at:

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/09/07/france.fuel.03/prices.tabel.exclude.html

You will see that in US it is much cheaper! (about 3 times cheaper!!!!) And this is not because US has more fuel. It is because that Europe encourages THINKING and USING and DEVELOPING other sources of energy. US encourages using petrol. (Hm, no wonder why )

So even if there would be any other sources, better and cheaper, I bet that US will struggle hard agains them

 

[scooter13]

Not only that, but think of the infrastructure that would need to be in place to start us switching to it and the cost. There would have to be many places were the average citizen could purchase the methanol. This would probably take refurbishing the typical gas station, or building new ones. Then the car companies would have to be building cars with the capability to burn it. (Though their cost would more then likely be less.)

Honestly, I would love to see the switch start happening. But I don't see it happening because of big business and the politicians. Though I wish they would get off their collective butts and start realizing that our children's future, including their children, is more important then lining their wallets.

 

[Motokid]

I don't think you read the article did you? I know it's quite long.

Apparently the cost of making a FFV is about $400.00 more than making a gasoline vehicle. A gallon of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline for the FFV vehicle is about 20 to 30 cents less than regular gasoline.

There are currently about 4 million FFV cars in USA.

The switch would be as painless as anything. We're not talking about hydrogen gas here.

 

[StillILearn]

More than five million Tauruses, Explorers, Stratuses, Suburbans, and other vehicles are already equipped with engines that can run on an energy source that costs less than gasoline, produces almost none of the emissions that cause global warming, and comes from the Midwest, not the Middle East.

Thank you for this article, Moto. I've been hanging onto my ancient Jeep until I'm prepared to make the leap to green with my next automobile purchase. Have you done any research that would help you to choose which of these cars you'd buy?

At some point here we will have to admit that we have sucked the last reasonable drop of dinosaur jelly out of the ground. Don't you think?

 

[scooter13]

I don't think you read the article did you? I know it's quite long.

Apparently the cost of making a FFV is about $400.00 more than making a gasoline vehicle. A gallon of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline for the FFV vehicle is about 20 to 30 cents less than regular gasoline.

There are currently about 4 million FFV cars in USA.

The switch would be as painless as anything. We're not talking about hydrogen gas here.

No, I didn't read the article. (Sorry, I am crunched for time.) I would hope it is easy, but again I just don't see the politicians and oil companies making it easy for us to really make a big change.

 

[muggle]

For the most part the article is simply a "Headline Grabber" and written not by people actually associated with conducting studies. The article makes one think that everything is all rosy with ethanol, which it is not. There are many studies that dispute that ethanol is ready for mass use without its own set of problems including environmental problems. Ethanol may eventually have a future, how much no one really knows at this time. One of the reasons we have an energy problem is this country does not have a real energy program. A few things that could be done:

nuclear power - Govt needs to address problems and then make it easier to engineer and build the plants.

hydrogen gas - money needs to be put into research. Toyota has teamed up a little with the Savannah River Site to help further the technology. The hydrogen technology does have a potential future.

increase fuel requirements on vehicles - no reason in the world why efficiency cannot be improved.

and those are just a few things that need to be done.

 

[Motokid]

uhhhh, if memory serves me right politicians are elected officials.

I happen to think that by decreasing the need for foreign oil, increasing the need for jobs and infrastructure in America, helping the environment (muggle, I'm in complete amazement you think ethanol might be an evironmental problem over oil, makes me question if you have read the article either), cutting ties with OPEC and the Middle East, and helping America to become self sufficient would be an easy ticket to the White House for any party that jumps on board here.

Ethanol is a win-win scenario. There is no downside. It could be a short term start to ending some long term problems.

StillILearn. At the moment you would have to research what cars are FFV classified (easy with google) and where you can/could by the fuel. Again, easy with google. It appears most of the FFV vehicles are the full sized sedans and trucks by the American manufacturers. I could provide some links if you need them.

 

[muggle]

Ethanol in gasoline may represent a new source of hydrocarbons, a contributor to urban smog, state regulators caution. One big concern is ethanol's so-called "permeability'' factor: When gas blended with ethanol is stored in portable plastic tanks, or moves through rubber hoses on motor vehicles, hydrocarbons can seep out into the air.

Ethanol can also reduce the working capacity of the charcoal canisters used to control harmful emissions from vehicles, studies show.

At this point, the previous solutions that I posted are the most promising for helping reduce the energy problem. The production of electricity is one of the big users of oil and gas. The last 15 years utilities built many gas-fired plants and nuclear would greatly reduce the use.

 

[scooter13]

uhhhh, if memory serves me right politicians are elected officials.

And I am sorry to say that usually our choice is between two idiots that follow the typical mindset of the politicians before. As soon as they become members of "The Club", they start falling into the same traps as the ones before. Or if they truly want to make a difference, they run into walls put up by the other idiots that are already elected and entrenched in "The Club."

Sure, it sounds cynical, but it's the way I feel. I do still vote, but it always feels like I am voting for the lesser of two evils (if I may use a cliché).

 

[Motokid]

And I am sorry to say that usually our choice is between two idiots

That's why I always vote for neither of the two idiots and always end up going for the third or forth person who never even gets a podium at the debates or in the newspapers. I voted for the one that was heavily into alternative ideas and programs designed to cut our dependance on foreign oil. But that's a different thread and probably one that would get locked.

Consumers drive everything. As more and more Americans go for Hybrid cars, and look for higher MPG's in cars things will slowly start happening.

Once again if you look at the FFV options at the moment they are all larger sedans and trucks. Why are they not offering FFV choices in the compact market and/or entry level market?

As gas edges closer to $3.00 a gallon again, and heating costs continue to rise it's just a matter of time before the consumer pushes this forward.

 

[scooter13]

That's why I always vote for neither of the two idiots and always end up going for the third or forth person who never even gets a podium at the debates or in the newspapers. I voted for the one that was heavily into alternative ideas and programs designed to cut our dependance on foreign oil. But that's a different thread and probably one that would get locked.

Consumers drive everything. As more and more Americans go for Hybrid cars, and look for higher MPG's in cars things will slowly start happening.

Once again if you look at the FFV options at the moment they are all larger sedans and trucks. Why are they not offering FFV choices in the compact market and/or entry level market?

As gas edges closer to $3.00 a gallon again, and heating costs continue to rise it's just a matter of time before the consumer pushes this forward.

As for the voting, yes I have voted for third and fourth party candidates as well. Even for the US President. There were three elections in a row where I voted for neither the Republican or Democratic candidates. But then those "other" parties never get elected, so again I feel like I lose.

My wife and I have seriously thought about getting a hybrid or other option. The problem we have right now is money. We can't afford a new car. Plus with a very young child, we are looking for a minivan. Though again, we are months away from being able to afford that. (Damn economy!)

I hope there is a serious move to get us away from oil. We depend too much on it, whether it's coming from the middle east or our own back yard.

 

[muggle]

Moto, that article in question is a "Tabloid" style article. There are no magic buttons to push that will make the energy problem go away. There are only a combination of ways to help solve the problem and we should be working towards most of the solutions and not believing a couple guys that are trying to gain the headlines. Now, lets see how many realistic ways we can suggest to help improve the energy problem. Try adding to this list:

Nuclear energy.
Hydrogen technology
Hybrid cars.
Govt. mandated higher fuel mileage by auto manufacturers.

Anyone else care to add to the list?

 

[Motokid]

I really don't know many people that consider Fortune Magazine to be "tabloid" style reporting.

If you watch the president tonight there's rumor he's going to target alternative fuels, and possibly a direct mention of ethanol.

Nuclear huh? In who's backyard?
How about coal? That's an alternative.
Hydrogen is probably at least 50 years off if not more, and would require a completely new infrastructure to be put in place.

I did not say ethanol would solve the energy issues of America completely. I simply stated that it's the best ticket going at the moment to start digging out from under our dependence on OPEC and the Middle East.

I'm not the only one who thinks positively of ethanol: Richard Branson does too. Not the worst company to keep huh?


This is promising too.

 

[clueless]

I don't see why they talk about ethanol as if it was a new thing. Brazilian cars have been running on ethanol produced from sugar cane for donkey's years

 

[StillILearn]

Consumers drive everything.

You just said it all, Moto. And in both senses of the word. What we buy is what they will continue to offer us. And if we want Hummers, that's what we'll get. I admit that I'm still driving my older Jeep, but every time I see a new Hummer, I flash on the word "dolt" (which word is usually followed closely by the thought, "dupe.")

 

[Motokid]

Considering the popularity of Hybrids, Civics, Corollas and other gas sippers my guess is the consumer is starting to push in the right direction...

The issue I would have with an FFV vehicle in my area would be getting the E85 fuel. There's not a station in my state that offers it.

Which makes me think I should go into that business. I could be the first station in my state to offer E85 and Biodeisel....then all I would need would be some customers...which comes first the fuel or the cars????? Damn.

 

[muggle]

Nuclear huh? In who's backyard?
How about coal? That's an alternative.
Hydrogen is probably at least 50 years off if not more, and would require a completely new infrastructure to be put in place.

Coal is probably one of the absolute worst alternatives for an energy choice, unless you have a desire to continue polluting the world.

Hydrogen has tremendous potential to be the ultimate clean fuel of the future.....and could be available in the not to distant future if enough importance is given to its development. They still need to come up with answers to some very important technical challenges though. They must come up with more cost effective hydrogen storage technology. Storage in a solid state form is much more desirable than the liquid state.

 

[StillILearn]

Considering the popularity of Hybrids, Civics, Corollas and other gas sippers my guess is the consumer is starting to push in the right direction...

The cars above are the ones I'm looking at.

My backyard is in Yucca Mountain, Nevada, and I'm one of those persons who just doesn't feel good about our present nuclear habits/options. What are your thoughts about that? Aside from this, I mean:

Nuclear huh? In who's backyard?

Care to elaborate?

 

[Motokid]

I live close enough to Three-Mile Island that it's pretty much tattooed on my brain from living through that time period and the exposure the news gave it.

There are already currently 2 other Nuclear plants within about 30 miles of where I live.

What do we do with the radioactive waste from these places? Bury it deep under the Rocky Mountains? Shoot it into space and aim for the sun?

I don't mind the thought of more nuclear power plants but that doesn't solve my problem of paying out the arse for gas at the pump and into my car.

edit to add:

There are three major alternative fuels. Ethanol is first. The second is coal-to-gas. This area is appealing because the US has more coal than any other country. With natural gas at $9-$10 per mBTU, so-called syngas is economically appealing. To make it, you use what's called IGCC technology. (That stands for integrated gasification combined cycle.) The recent energy bill includes a $750 million subsidy to get this business going.

The third camp is synfuel, which takes the synthesizing process one step further. It converts natural gas or syngas to liquid, generally diesel fuel. The Germans developed this is World War II, because they had no access to crude oil.