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Is Time Real?

Libre

Libre

Member
I can deal with abstract concepts, but TIME is the most abstract concept we have, yet we all take it for granted. What got me thinking about this was the Extra Second thread. I mean, let's face it. There was no extra second - they were just synchronizing the clocks to the earth. It's not like there really are seconds, extra or otherwise. It's just a construct. The Earth is real - I know that. The three dimensions - I have no problem there. It's the "fourth" dimension, TIME that I've wondered about all my days. There see? ALL MY DAYS. I can't get away from the concept of time - yet, it is a total abstraction that we humans created.
Then I think, no, time IS real after all. I can prove it: There are observable and measurable phenomena in the physical world that could not exist without time. Two are: Velocity and Acceleration. In fact, time is a factor in a great many physics equations. So then time MUST be real because physics is (are) real.
So, Is Time Real?
 
Is time a construct or is it real?
One of the problems inherent with knowledge is that we can't determine whether we create the things we interpret (in this case, time) or whether they exist as separate entities without our existence. I really think it's impossible to figure out which is the case. I think humans quantify things in order to control the world around them- just a way of making sense of the place we live in. Maybe naming something is an attempt at quantifying something as well, seeing as how I can only ponder the concept of "eternity" for about a minute before my poor brain shuts down. Numbers, words, time...I see them all as concepts with no meaning outside of a human's brain. You just have to follow the rules of each in order to undertand the world in a way that "makes sense".
Personally, I hate looking at clocks throughout the day, I feel too "structured" by time, like other people are making me rush for no reason. I can't explain it other than that.
I hope my attempt at the use of language made sense to you...:D
 
lovermuffin-
What you say has some truth to it - on some level, NOTHING exists outside of the human brain. The old, If A Tree Falls In The Forest Does It Make A Sound... conundrum.
But when my more practical side takes over, I believe that there ARE things that DO exist, independant of our (my) knowledge of them. There are constructs and there are physical realities. The earth was here before I (or anyone) was born, and will continue to exist long after I (and everyone) is gone. Love, on the other hand, needs human brains to exist. Love is in people's hearts and souls and minds and cannot exist on it's own as a force of nature.
So, I wonder, in which of these two catagories does TIME fall?
 
Libre said:
I can deal with abstract concepts, but TIME is the most abstract concept we have, yet we all take it for granted. What got me thinking about this was the Extra Second thread. I mean, let's face it. There was no extra second - they were just synchronizing the clocks to the earth. It's not like there really are seconds, extra or otherwise. It's just a construct. The Earth is real - I know that. The three dimensions - I have no problem there. It's the "fourth" dimension, TIME that I've wondered about all my days. There see? ALL MY DAYS. I can't get away from the concept of time - yet, it is a total abstraction that we humans created.
Then I think, no, time IS real after all. I can prove it: There are observable and measurable phenomena in the physical world that could not exist without time. Two are: Velocity and Acceleration. In fact, time is a factor in a great many physics equations. So then time MUST be real because physics is (are) real.
So, Is Time Real?
Click to expand...

I'm going to preface my next question by asking you if the whole idea of metaphysics makes you feel like throwing up?
 
I feel sick just thinking about this, I'm so glad I'm not clever enough to actually think about it for too long... very interesting discussion, by the way!!
 
Here's my (not so abstract) take on it: time is real. There is now, was and will be. Seconds, minutes and hours, are just arbitrary measurements of when.
 
But humans aren't the only ones who witness a passage of 'time'. Think of the seasons - that affects plants and animals alike. There are plants that depend on the passage of time for their very existence. They have to wait for a particular sort of weather in order to grow, and that sort of weather generally arrives at specific intervals. Animals grow thicker coats and hibernate at one end of the 'year' and they shed their coats and are more active at the other end. So a 'year' is a naturally occuring concept. As is a day, which some plants need for their survival. The circadean rythms of people are also based on the period of time we call a day (actually I think they're about 23.5 hours). The fact that we assign words to these passages of 'time' doesn't change the fact that moments are passing.

I think time is more about our perception of moments passing. How we perceive how long ago we did something else, for example.
 
Libre said:
There are constructs and there are physical realities.
So, I wonder, in which of these two catagories does TIME fall?
Click to expand...

I do agree that time is a measurement of the state of progression of things, but I do not think that it exists outside of the human brain.
Here's a question: How can we be sure that eternity exists if we can't experience it?
If I look at the big bang theory, I have to ask myself, did anything exist before that? Or, if I believe in God, I ask, how could have God began? I think that if you look at these two theories, the scientist would think that time is real because it started at the big bang, and the person believing in God would say that time does not exist because He has no beginning and no end.

On a separate note, I have to disagree with cajunmama’s statement, for using language to prove her point. What I mean is, the word “was” in English is different from that of Spanish, were “was” is divded into two classes: the preterite tense “fue” and the imperfect tense “era”. While “fue” implies that the event took place at a specific time, “era” would mean that it was that way as a state of existence for a while. That still poses the question of whether time was constructed or whether it has always existed.
 
I believe our understanding of time is constructed and quite dependent on language. However, TIME itself is very real... look at the phenomenon of space-time. The universe's shape is determined by it.

P.S. I can thank Bill Bryson for this semi-informed opinion :D
 
cajunmama said:
Here's my (not so abstract) take on it: time is real. There is now, was and will be.
Click to expand...

I submit that the ONLY one of those three are NOT abstractions is the NOW. By definition, the WAS and the WILL BE exist only in our minds. So there is only one point that is concrete, existing independant of our conceptions - the NOW. And since you need at least two points to establish a movement or a direction, and the concept of TIME is totally dependant on its flow or movement or passage - then TIME must be an abstraction, and exist only in our minds.
Or something.
 
There is simply no time as you think of it, only a present in which all things occur.
Click to expand...

This is but a portion of a pretty good converstion I was having with myself a while ago in a thread entitled "More thoughts on the space-time ..."

It's still there if anybody is interested.
 
I should have spoken(written) more precisely in my earlier post. I was talking about the past, the present and the future. I know the past happened. I see the effects of it every moment of every day. Five minutes ago was once now, and just because I'm not there anymore doesn't mean it didn't really exist. It just has become something else. Five minutes from now is going to be now eventually. Time is a constant state of flux, the future constantly becoming the present and then becoming the past. But just because we can't nail it down doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The effects of time are all around us, on us, in us. The things we do in the present last into the future and the things we have done in the past still exist because we feel the effects in the present.
 
caj-
You were clear enough. I can't really dispute you with any conviction because in fact my senses tell me you are right.
Then, there is another part of me that says that 5 minutes ago or 5 minutes from now, or indeed, a nanosecond ago or a nanosecond from now, are abstract concepts, in the sense that they do not exist except in our minds. They are abstract, because by definition they are not the HERE and NOW. They are mental images, impossible to observe directly. You can see the effects of the past, but you can't see THE PAST except in your memory. THE FUTURE is anybody's guess. This is not the same as saying that since I am not looking at the Pacific Ocean at this moment it is an abstract concept. I am convinced that whether or not I am looking at it, it exists at this moment and ANYONE could look at it and it would be there. But the past and the future only exist if we think about them.
 
cajunmama said:
I should have spoken(written) more precisely in my earlier post. I was talking about the past, the present and the future. I know the past happened. I see the effects of it every moment of every day. Five minutes ago was once now, and just because I'm not there anymore doesn't mean it didn't really exist. It just has become something else. Five minutes from now is going to be now eventually. Time is a constant state of flux, the future constantly becoming the present and then becoming the past. But just because we can't nail it down doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The effects of time are all around us, on us, in us. The things we do in the present last into the future and the things we have done in the past still exist because we feel the effects in the present.
Click to expand...
I totally agree with you. I do not presume to speak for anyone else, however, I do not know of anyone that would disagree with you. The topic on Time is only a discussion but I really doubt that anyone actually dis-believes what you have posted.
 
Reply

Hello- I had written a long reply to your question of time, (But it mysteriously disappeared, right before my eyes) and it was based on quantum theory of the wave-particle understanding. See an electron and you have particle form: photograph an electron and it appears as a wave. Percetion of the 3D world is the basis for everything, including the contruct of time.
Time exists through perception of events, based on what are referred to as "core" beliefs, and we each interpret these beliefs in whatever way that we deem appropriate. So time is there, if you wish it to be and not if you do not desire it. I belive that it is a convenience that people use to qualify or quantify an existance.
Think of a happy person-time flies. Think of an un-happy person and time drags for them. So, the message is be happy!
Easier said than done, I realize. But there are ways around that too.
Peace-Frederick
 
Libre said:
I submit that the ONLY one of those three are NOT abstractions is the NOW.
Click to expand...

I think, therefore I am, proves my existence.

I thought, therefore I existed, proves my past existence.

Therefore since I existed in the past, the past must've existed.

Time is relative to me, but that is consistent with Einstien.
 
...but time didn't start at the beginning of human thinking, did it?
Did time "begin" or is time itself timeless?
 
Time does exist, but it has no system. Humans systemised it for measurement purposes (minutes, hours, years). Just like space, it has gone on forever and will go on forever; there was never a beginning and never will be an end. But time does exist, and it has to, or everything would be happening at once. There would be nothing without time, because everything takes time to develop.
 
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