Jack Kerouac

[Chixulub]

Greetings!

i am currently intrigued by jack kerouac and his fantastic prose.

i have read "on the road" and "big sur" and am currently reading "maggie cassidy."

What does everyone else here think of this beat generation genius?

Any recommendations on books?

I enjoyed 'On the Road.' Steinbeck's 'Travels with Charley' makes an interesting comparitive read.

Depending on what you dig about Kerouac, I'd recommend:

Terry Southern, especially 'The Magic Christian.' Also 'Candy,' (Southern's send-up of Voltaire). I haven't gotten to 'Flash and Filligree' or 'Blue Movie' yet, though I've read 'Red Dirt Marijuana' and 'Texas Summer,' which were written later and are much more conventional.

If you haven't read Pynchon, check out 'V.'

Also, Ken Kesey shows a strong Kerouac influence, so 'Cuckoo's Nest' is an obvious choice if you haven't read it yet.

You also might like 'Steal This Book' by Abbie Hoffman, which like Kesey is later. Oh, and 'The Strawberry Statement' by James Kunen. The latter is a tad infantile but it gives you a good feel for the workings of the time. Hoffman and Kunen are NOT wordsmiths on a par with Kesey, Southern, Pynchon or Kerouac, so that's why I say it depends on what you love about Kerouac.

The time span might seem a bit broad, but I think it's dishonest to ignore the link between the beatnik crowd and the hippie and yippie successors to that scene.

 

[novella]

. . . I think it's dishonest to ignore the link between the beatnik crowd and the hippie and yippie successors to that scene.

That's a preposterous thing to say. To ignore what came before the Beats and had influence might be considered 'dishonest,' but to ignore what comes after an author's work or a school of work could only be intellectually uncurious. It's certainly not dishonest. The works stand essentially in their time and place without reference to the future. To read the past as it was is intellectually honest, as any historian would tell you.

 

[Chixulub]

That's a preposterous thing to say. To ignore what came before the Beats and had influence might be considered 'dishonest,' but to ignore what comes after an author's work or a school of work could only be intellectually uncurious. It's certainly not dishonest.

I'm not sure what you're saying is preposterous. A reader who loves Kerouac and wants suggestions on furhter reading might very well be interested in the writers who followed in his footsteps. And too often a writer is read/taught as if he stepped from a vacuum. Philip Roth is a writer who is very beholden to Saul Bellow, likewise John Irving to Cheever, Updike to Kafka, etc.

Some (Steinbeck with 'Travels with Charley') are older but taking on a similar project (in fact, at an even later time). Others (Hoffman, Kunen, Kesey) are a continuation of a frame of mind though of various literary skill. Still others are pretty much contemporary with Kerouac (Terry Southern) but survived to grow beyond the beat movement.

The works stand essentially in their time and place without reference to the future. To read the past as it was is intellectually honest, as any historian would tell you.

I don't know what 'any historian' would tell me, but books of similar appeal do not always come in lock step. 'The Good Soldier Švejk' can be viewed as having parallels to 'Don Quixote' and 'Gargantua and Pantagruel,' though they are centuries apart. Hašek can also be studied as a contemporary of Kafka and fellow Bohemian. And Švejk is also very much an ancestor to Ignatius Reilly and Pig Bodine, which reaches into two other literary streams that came much later. And 'Catch-22' is very much beholden to 'Švejk.'

That's why I laid the caveat that it depends on why you love Kerouac when I was recommending other authors. Maybe I should have suggested Mark Richard's 'The Ice at the Bottom of the World,' especially the story Strays.

Or maybe I should have recommended Burroughs, who's contemporary with Kerouac, but who covers somewhat different subject matter, and manages to do so without being the least bit interesting (to me.)

 

[novella]

I'm not sure what you're saying is preposterous. A reader who loves Kerouac and wants suggestions on furhter reading might very well be interested in the writers who followed in his footsteps. And too often a writer is read/taught as if he stepped from a vacuum. Philip Roth is a writer who is very beholden to Saul Bellow, likewise John Irving to Cheever, Updike to Kafka, etc.

Some (Steinbeck with 'Travels with Charley') are older but taking on a similar project (in fact, at an even later time). Others (Hoffman, Kunen, Kesey) are a continuation of a frame of mind though of various literary skill. Still others are pretty much contemporary with Kerouac (Terry Southern) but survived to grow beyond the beat movement.



I don't know what 'any historian' would tell me, but books of similar appeal do not always come in lock step. 'The Good Soldier Švejk' can be viewed as having parallels to 'Don Quixote' and 'Gargantua and Pantagruel,' though they are centuries apart. Hašek can also be studied as a contemporary of Kafka and fellow Bohemian. And Švejk is also very much an ancestor to Ignatius Reilly and Pig Bodine, which reaches into two other literary streams that came much later. And 'Catch-22' is very much beholden to 'Švejk.'

That's why I laid the caveat that it depends on why you love Kerouac when I was recommending other authors. Maybe I should have suggested Mark Richard's 'The Ice at the Bottom of the World,' especially the story Strays.

Or maybe I should have recommended Burroughs, who's contemporary with Kerouac, but who covers somewhat different subject matter, and manages to do so without being the least bit interesting (to me.)

Sheesh. Are you taking pedant pills? It might be simpler not to characterize the omission of subsequent work as "dishonest."

 

[Chixulub]

Sheesh. Are you taking pedant pills?

I prefer to cut pedant pills up with a razor until they're a fine powder, then sniff them through a straw. You get MUCH more pedantic that way, but a side-effect is alienation of friends, family and even total strangers on internet forums.

It might be simpler not to characterize the omission of subsequent work as "dishonest."

True. More apt probably to say that someone who likes Kerouac might want to check out people who followed his lead. Just like it's sometimes instructive to go up the chain: reading Will Christopher Baer made me curious enough to read Raymond Chandler, for instance. Very different in their ways, but WCB is definitely beholden to the California hard-boiled tradition.

Please accept my apologies for posting while taking massive intranasal doses of pedant pills.

 

[funes]

For what it is worth, I think that there is a valid reason for not linking Kerouac with his "successors" in the hippie and yippie movements. Or rather, I think that most people assume too close a link between them. If I remember my Kerouac correctly (and I may be wrong), he himself had little use for either the hippies or the yippies. Perhaps he saw them all as posers, or simply resented being adopted by them as a sort of spiritual forefather.

 

[Chixulub]

For what it is worth, I think that there is a valid reason for not linking Kerouac with his "successors" in the hippie and yippie movements. Or rather, I think that most people assume too close a link between them. If I remember my Kerouac correctly (and I may be wrong), he himself had little use for either the hippies or the yippies. Perhaps he saw them all as posers, or simply resented being adopted by them as a sort of spiritual forefather.

That's fair. I hadn't heard that about Kerouac but I can see where a guy like Abbie Hoffman would irritate him. Just as Kerouac irritated people a few years older than himself.

I sometimes like linking what seem unlikely pairs. 'On the Road' with 'Travels with Charley' in part because they're such different writers, personalities, and time-frames.

Like matching 'Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test' by Wolfe with 'Hell's Angels' by Thompson. There's not a ton of overlap, but where there is you get an interesting way to triangulate the 'truth' such as can be found.

Ginsberg, Burroughs, a lot of the writers people associate with Kerouac either because of friendship or time frame may not appeal to a reader who just really digs Kerouac.

 

[Dogbaby]

Surprised nobody's mentioned 'Lonesome Traveller' yet. Anyone that hasn't read it should check it out.

'Even Cowgirls Get the Blues' always struck a Kerouac-esque nerve with me. An oft underrated book in my opinion that has the ability to stagger you with its occasional brilliance.

 

[funes]

I sometimes like linking what seem unlikely pairs. 'On the Road' with 'Travels with Charley' in part because they're such different writers, personalities, and time-frames.

Yeah, I figured that that was where you were coming from. As you say, it can be fun to get people to step a little outside of the vein they may currently be working.
Also, if I remember correctly, Kerouac has something to say, towards the end of Big Sur about a crowed of hippies that he encounters, and isn't very flattering. But, for that matter, I've met some damned annoying hippies myself, regardless of our ideological affinities.

 

[Chixulub]

Yeah, I figured that that was where you were coming from. As you say, it can be fun to get people to step a little outside of the vein they may currently be working.
Also, if I remember correctly, Kerouac has something to say, towards the end of Big Sur about a crowed of hippies that he encounters, and isn't very flattering. But, for that matter, I've met some damned annoying hippies myself, regardless of our ideological affinities.

I think by the time there were 'hippies' to contend with, Kerouac wasn't too keen on a lot of people who would probably have described themselves as 'beat.'

Kerouac has his weak moments, but like Orwell, he's distinguished by a capacity for critical thinking you won't find in huge pockets of almost any counter-culture. Most 'hippies' were probably annoying, and so were probably most 'beatniks.' I'm too young to have first hand experience with pre-burnout hippies, but I remember the punk days well. All those bands, all those shaved heads, mohawks, etc. 20-30 years later, almost all of it sounds like empty noise. The Dead Kennedys had some wickedly clever satirical lyrics, and a couple other bands had a song or two that hit their mark, but most of it will be duly forgotten.

And I'll bet Jello Biafra finds a lot of self-described 'punks' annoying too...

 

[funes]

I remember the punk days well. All those bands, all those shaved heads, mohawks, etc. 20-30 years later, almost all of it sounds like empty noise.

Yeah, yeah. Black Flag isn't quite as funny as it used to be.
But, to get back to Jack, I always sort of got the feeling that he really resented the "hijacking" of his ideology (to the extent that he would have said he had an ideology) by later groups. And, as you say, towards the end of his life, he didn't seem to have too high an opinion of much of anybody.

Kerouac has his weak moments, but like Orwell, he's distinguished by a capacity for critical thinking you won't find in huge pockets of almost any counter-culture.

I think that's why i like Desolation Angels so much. Some of the manic energy of On the Road was burning away, and leaving behind a sort of detached cynicism. It reminded me a lot of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, in that respect.

 

[Chixulub]

But, to get back to Jack, I always sort of got the feeling that he really resented the "hijacking" of his ideology (to the extent that he would have said he had an ideology) by later groups. And, as you say, towards the end of his life, he didn't seem to have too high an opinion of much of anybody.

Alas, I've known more than one creative type to end as a bitter old man. Personally, knew one who was truly a genius. Not sure if there's a way to avoid it. Also, I don't think Kerouac was particularly ideological, but a lot of his 'disciples' were definitely, and it's natural that he'd feel they weren't 'getting it.' An individualist is always going to resent having his name raised in the name of the collective. I seem to recall ee cummings had the same problem.

I think that's why i like Desolation Angels so much. Some of the manic energy of On the Road was burning away, and leaving behind a sort of detached cynicism. It reminded me a lot of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, in that respect.

Funny you should mention that, because 'Desolation Angels' coudn't hold me, but neither could 'Zen and te Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.' Maybe I tried to read them at the wrong age, I was older when I got to 'On the Road.'

 

[funes]

Funny you should mention that, because 'Desolation Angels' coudn't hold me, but neither could 'Zen and te Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.' Maybe I tried to read them at the wrong age, I was older when I got to 'On the Road.'

Right. I was happy not to have read Kerouac until I was in college. I don't think that I'd have "gotten" On the Road, in the same way, if I had been 17 or 18. The same with Zen. I think I got a lot more out of them because I first read them when I was a little older.

 

[Chixulub]

Right. I was happy not to have read Kerouac until I was in college. I don't think that I'd have "gotten" On the Road, in the same way, if I had been 17 or 18. The same with Zen. I think I got a lot more out of them because I first read them when I was a little older.

That's true of SO MANY books. I hated 'Catcher in the Rye,' but I was in my early 30s when I read it. Maybe when I was 16 it would have knocked me out.

And then there was more tortured journey through 'Moby Dick' when I was 14, which was seriously a scarring experience. I still haven't come back to Melville, and it took me over ten years before I even thought about reading a 'classic' (in the sense of it being on a recommended reading list in an English department).

So a lot of my favorite reads of the past eight or nine years are probably books I wouldn't have understood when I was in high school, including Kerouac. The return to 'classics' for me has made me pickier about what I'll read now. Especially in terms of contemporary writers. I don't share the pessimism of some that there are no new classics to come, but finding the worthy can be a challenge.

In terms of recommending books to someone who loves Kerouac for his lyric gifts, that makes this a slippery thread. I angered some by suggesting writers in the Kerouac 'school' so to speak. But another approach would be to focus on writers who use language in clever ways.

If it's the quality of prose that appeals to you in Kerouac, I humbly submit that Thomas Pynchon, Toni Morrison, Amy Hempel, Don DeLillo, William Faulkner, Stephen Graham Jones, Raymond Carver, and March Richard all deserve a peek. That's a pretty diverse list, but each are formidable wordsmiths when they're in good form. All can cruise on style alone, indpendent of plot, dialogue, and even to an extent, characters.

Casting a wider net to include some authors who have definite peaks and valleys in their writing, I'd include John Updike, Joyce Carol Oates, Jonathan Lethem, Jim Crace, Philip Roth, Saul Bellow, John Cheever, and Kurt Vonnegut.

 

[novella]

Chix,
I've just ordered The Dog of the Marriage from my library system. Have it two days, maybe three. Perhaps we can have a chat about it when I'm immersed. Just finishing Francine Prose's Blue Angel and nothing to recommend, though I posted separately. Not so much a suckfest as a lick and squinch.

 

[funes]

In terms of recommending books to someone who loves Kerouac for his lyric gifts, that makes this a slippery thread. I angered some by suggesting writers in the Kerouac 'school' so to speak. But another approach would be to focus on writers who use language in clever ways.

I always thought of On the Road as being, primarily, a novel of voice. If you don't hear the voice, you don't get it. The same with Catcher. But, it took me a lot of living to be able to "get" some of the other aspects of each (especially On the Road).

 

[Chixulub]

I always thought of On the Road as being, primarily, a novel of voice. If you don't hear the voice, you don't get it. The same with Catcher. But, it took me a lot of living to be able to "get" some of the other aspects of each (especially On the Road).

'Catcher' didn't irritate me because I couldn't hear the voice. It was the whining voice that put me off. I was trapped on a bus from KC to Dallas with Holden Caufield for company and I wanted to smack him, the privileged turd. Easily the worst traveling companion I've ever endured.

 

[DanWilde1966]

I have only read On the Road - used as a sort of factional "guide book", during a trip from Buffalo, New York, to Los Angeles in 1990. I too took the Greyhound bus, and though I did not depart from New York City, we picked up the same route that Kerouac took somewhere along the line. I was in that bus for nearly a week (it got very smelly), and we were riding with all manner of people, from hookers to this crazy character ("Brian"), who had a violent temper, but who was able to show me around various bars he knew en route. Though I did not have Kerouac's scale of adventures along the way, I found the book to be a pretty accurate representation of the journey. The whole trip was given a certain validity and verisimilitude, by the fact that a few weeks later, in Manhattan, I actually ran into Allen Ginsberg in St Mark's Place, where he was doing a reading. I got his autograph and had a chat. Ginsberg appears as a character in On the Road, of course - so I was chuffed.

 

[JimMorrison]

I enjoyed 'On the Road.' Steinbeck's 'Travels with Charley' makes an interesting comparitive read.

Depending on what you dig about Kerouac, I'd recommend:

Terry Southern, especially 'The Magic Christian.' Also 'Candy,' (Southern's send-up of Voltaire). I haven't gotten to 'Flash and Filligree' or 'Blue Movie' yet, though I've read 'Red Dirt Marijuana' and 'Texas Summer,' which were written later and are much more conventional.

If you haven't read Pynchon, check out 'V.'

Also, Ken Kesey shows a strong Kerouac influence, so 'Cuckoo's Nest' is an obvious choice if you haven't read it yet.

You also might like 'Steal This Book' by Abbie Hoffman, which like Kesey is later. Oh, and 'The Strawberry Statement' by James Kunen. The latter is a tad infantile but it gives you a good feel for the workings of the time. Hoffman and Kunen are NOT wordsmiths on a par with Kesey, Southern, Pynchon or Kerouac, so that's why I say it depends on what you love about Kerouac.

The time span might seem a bit broad, but I think it's dishonest to ignore the link between the beatnik crowd and the hippie and yippie successors to that scene.

thank you so much...and despite the ambiguous replies i will defintely give some of the authors you mentioned a chance

 

[JimMorrison]

Right. I was happy not to have read Kerouac until I was in college. I don't think that I'd have "gotten" On the Road, in the same way, if I had been 17 or 18. The same with Zen. I think I got a lot more out of them because I first read them when I was a little older.

i read it when i was 17 and fell in love with it. i am intrigued by the whole beatnik scene and i can totally hear "the voice." it was a pleasure to read and a journey of its own kind for myself to read through it. it has changed me in various ways. i guess it depends on the person.