June 2008: Ernest Hemingway: A Farewell To Arms

[beer good]

So I finished this this weekend (sped through it in two glorious sun-soaked days).

And I find myself liking but not loving it. The other Hemingways I've read - The Sun Also Rises and The Old Man And The Sea, of course, like everyone else - I thought were a lot more interesting. In A Farewell To Arms we spend most of the story inside the head of a character who's not even a narrator, merely a reporter - hence the matter-of-fact newspaper-style language that seems to strive for objectivity. We have page after page after page of rather mundane and stilted dialogue, but far too often the dialogue feels like it mostly takes up space; Hemingway doesn't use it to make any specific point, he just reports it.

the main caractere seem so blend that he make the stranger of Camus a likebale and warm personne,and the dialogue as you say are all to real.In a "passe-me-the-butter,do-you-want-the-salt" kind of way.
Some derscriptions,like the lift in the hospital in Milan(but there is many others);do not bring anything to the narration.
It make me feel as if he was bored writing the thing,the only living it up is when there's some booze include.

I suppose maybe that IS part of the point, to capture the day-to-day boredom of war - especially since as an ambulance driver on a relatively quiet and "picturesque" part of the front (and far from the trenches of France) he doesn't really take part in the actual war very much for a long time.

(And of course, it was a different sort of war to the ones we're used to seeing reported today. Henry is a volunteer, and seems more or less to be taking part in the war in any way he sees fit until the shit hits the fan - even going so far as to buying his own equipment when he heads back, or ordering himself into a hospital.)

I was thinking that Hemingway's relatively colorless treatment of battle scenes might have been a sign of the times. I can't think of any comaprable scenes from other novels, not having read any of the famous WW I books, so I don't really know.

I think that's definitely part of it, but I also think there's a deliberate point to be made here about Henry's situation: he's not Italian, he's not one of the men (to most of the characters in the army, he's simply the foreign Tenente), he's not a soldier - he's not so much in the war as at it, but not actually part of it. The main plotline isn't "Frederic Henry goes to war", it's "Frederic Henry falls in love," even if the war suffuses everything that happens in the course of that plot.

But the love affair gets roughly the same treatment, which is a pity; with a [-]narrator [/-]reporter who will only tell us what happens but only rarely how he feels about it, it's rather difficult to glean exactly how they feel about each other and exactly how true that romance is. Love might be a battlefield, but much like the battle scenes, Frederic and Catherine's story could have used more blood and guts.

The first thing I noticed is that everything is tainted by the war. It starts in the first chapter where even the leaves of the trees are solied by the passing soldiers. The snow, which always seems to hide filth and make things beautiful can't even cover the ugly destruction of what was once a beautiful forest. When Catherine and our narrator are together in the hospital room, they can smell the coffee of the soldiers on the roof of the next building.

I know our characters seem not to be bothered the war, but I wonder if this is a case where actions speak louder then words. I think Rinaldi's desire to marry Catherine and the lightening fast romance between Catherine and Frederic henry are accelerated by the fear caused by war and the need to satisfy certain psychological needs and life goals.

Pedar, I like your comments about the battle. Much of war is monotony and destruction often comes quickly and without warning. Hemingway also shows some of the other ugly business of the war in other ways. The incident where one in ten soldiers are put to death and families lose their civil rights and their protection under the laws. But I really don't think the book is about the battles. We have our narrator and his comrades who understand that taking a village or mountain does not end the war and that there are always peopel in power that seem willing to promote a war; so they can see no end to it. We have Frederick Henry who has alreay avoided the monotony of the winder months by taking trip through Italy. he finds temporary relief fromthe war in his romance with Catherine, and again puts the war behind him when he's in the hospital. I think the Hemingway wrote teh battle the way he did because A Farewell to Arms is less about battle then Henry's tempory escapes from it.

More later.

This is an excellent comment, and sums up pretty much everything I'll take with me from the book. However...

I understand where some of you are coming from and those are valid points, but I'm still having trouble connecting with this book, its characters, and the war. I can appreciate the intellectual aspect of a book, but if I can't connect to it emotionally, I'm left wanting.

...yeah. That sums up part of what I had a problem with. The objective, reporting style is both technically brilliant (except for the dialogue) and emotionally disconnected.

The ending bothered me a little, too. It adds to the newspaper-article feel of the book in that it doesn't really work dramatically; it might be realistic, but realism alone does not a great story make.

Spoiler

They're having a baby, they're having a baby, they're having a baby, oops, his whole family died. The End.

It doesn't really help the feeling that Catherine isn't exactly the most fleshed-out female character ever - when

Spoiler

all she actually does in the end is to die professing her love for Frederic, especially given Ferguson's complaints, I can't help but feel a bit iffy. Sure, there's probably a point to it; the war is over, and so is the wartime romance.

There are things about A Farewell To Arms that are brilliant. Just not enough to make it a brilliant novel, IMO.

3/5.

 

[Libra]

Very nicely analyzed beergood. I finished it also, and I feel the same way.

The good things, it was a fast read and simple.I found the characters a bit non-chalant. It was annoying at times for me with all the darlings and you are sweets but other than that ,it was ok.

 

[oskylad]

One of the most interesting characters in the novel (in my view, perhaps the only interesting character) was the priest. And yet Hemingway did not choose to even give the man a name.

The priest was the only man in the officer's mess with a semblance of faith. All the other characters seemed to follow the thinking of the major, that: "All thinking men are atheists."

The priest withstood constant ridicule from the other officers. Yet he continued to offer friendship to the others.

The best give and take came in Chapter XI, when Henry was in the field hospital after being injured. The priest showed his weariness and his hatred of the war. Even though he ranked as an officer, he identified with the common man.

"They are not organized to stop things, and when they get organized their leaders sell them out."

The priest longed to return to his home in Abruzzi.

"I would be too happy. I could live there and love God and serve him." "And be respected," I said. "Yes and be respected ... there in my country it is understood that a man may love god. It is not a dirty joke."

 

[oskylad]

The priest talked about Archbishop Ireland in Chapter VII. Archbishop Ireland is still honored here in Saint Paul. He was very active in equal rights, education, and helping the immigrant.

One of his many social causes was total abstinence. Ireland spoke out against the alcoholic abuse he witnessed among many immigrants. Speaking to his own Irish brethren…“The foe to your race today is the saloonkeeper. The remedy is total abstinence.”

Perhaps Hemingway brought him into the story as a contrast to the constant use of alcohol by the other characters.

 

[SeoulMan]

All the minor characters are underdeveloped. You could even make a case for Catherine and, to a lesser extent, Frederic Henry.

I think the two Swiss officers at Locarno deserve their own novel. They're a riot!

 

[oskylad]

After the priest talks about loving God in Chapter XI, Henry says he "understands".

He looked at me and smiled. "You understand but you do not love God." "No." "You do not love Him at all?" he asked. "I am afraid of Him in the night sometimes." "You should love Him." "I don't love much." "You will. I know you will. Then you will be happy." "How about loving women? If I really loved some woman would it be like that?"

It is a sad irony that after this Henry learned to love Catherine, but never learned to love God. When he lost Catherine, there was nothing left. He was left a lonely man on a lonely night in a lonely universe.

 

[SFG75]

For being an atheist, Hemingway gave the priest an image of being a warm and kind man. The soldiers may tease him, but that is all a part of being a part of the group-of friendship and the many roles that people take on in groups. The interaction between Frederic and the priest while Frederich is hospitalized is a very touching part of the book.

I do agree, the customs agents were an absolute riot.

"I beg your pardon," the other official said. " I come from Montreux. There is very certainly winter sport on the Montreux Oberland Bernois railway. It would be false for you to deny that."

"I do not deny it. I simply said there is no winter sport at Montreux."

"I question that," the other official siad. I wquestion that statement."

"I hold to that statement."

I'm not certain that I would agree that the minor characters are underdeveloped. Fergy comes across as a good friend of Catherine's who just happens to have....a very disagreeable disposition. She certainly has a bit of spunk about her. The Count is definitely a gentleman and a person of deep thought, though he is rather sparse when it comes to words. Rinaldi is the hellraiser friend that you have who says outrageous things, but whom you enjoy thoroughly. The customs agents and their questioning of two foreigners is believable. To me, the dialogue sounds like it could occur as they were in that "maybe we are hearing the truth, maybe not" line of thinking as the foreigners explained themselves. The priest is a modest man who takes his ribbing but knows how to be there for people. I would agree that the count and him don't stand out when compared to one another, though a great dialogue could've occured had Hemingway written the book with a scene of them interacting-it would've been a good one.

 

[saliotthomas]

I liked the scene in the billard room with the old count and in the all, i think it would make a good movie(and maybe has!). I talk about it with my father and he agreed with some nostalgie that somehow the book as an old fashion tone,but that time had been hard on it.on tip toes,here.Some book seem to be intemporary as some are deeply rooted in time and style,A farwell to arms belong for me to the later group.

 

[SeoulMan]

Yes, I agree with the billiard room scene. There's a lot of potential there and I almost wish the whole book was more like this and less like the reporting style it has.

 

[Peder]

I am intrigued by comparisons between books and I always wonder about the answers.

The blurb on the back cover of mine says that this is "the best American novel to emerge from World War I." My knowledge of WW I novels is blank. Even after making allowance for possible exaggeration, does anyone have any thoughts on what other WW I novels there are? And perhaps how they might compare?

With respect to other novels, the only one I can think of that comes close, is Orwell's Homage to Catalonia regarding the Spanish Civil War, and I would definitely give it the edge over Farewell to Arms for both interest and realism.

Any ideas re (American) WW I novels?

The back cover also says that "Hemingway did more to change the style of English prose than any other writer of the twentieth century." Considering what the remarks here have been about the unimpressive prose style of Farewell to Arms, that is hard to believe. Again, does anyone have any thoughts on what later novels might be said to be "Hemingwayesque," or influenced by Hemingway. I come up blank again.

As for rooted in their time, maybe Farewell to Arms really is. But I also think in a random way of John Dos Passos whom I would like to read someday. Any thoughts there? And maybe also Scott Fitzgerald whom I would likewise like to read.

Just wondering out loud.

 

[SeoulMan]

I think that unless we were there at the time, we wouldn't be able to fully understand or appreciate this novel. Perhaps if I were there and I picked up A Farewell to Arms when it was first released, maybe I would be awe-inspired. I can't say for sure. It is true though that Hemingway's writing style was remarkably different than the norm at that time. Reading it now, though, in the 21st century, I can't appreciate it.

It's like the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band album from 1967. Supposedly, when it was released, it was all the rage and everyone thought it was the greatest and most ground-breaking and revolutionary album in all of music. And to this day, it is still considered one of the greatest and most influential albums of all time. I bought the album in the mid-1980s and I couldn't believe all the hype. I thought it was crappy and thought about returning it to the record store where I bought it. Even today, I listen to it now and then, and just get annoyed at how crappy it is. "Lovely Rita...meter maid..." What?!?! Needless to say, this is just my opinion. I know lots of people love and admire this album.

I bring this example up to point out how we can't judge a book fairly because we weren't there when it was first released.

 

[Libra]

As for rooted in their time, maybe Farewell to Arms really is. But I also think in a random way of John Dos Passos whom I would like to read someday. Any thoughts there? And maybe also Scott Fitzgerald whom I would likewise like to read.

We are still in suggestions for October BOM , maybe you should add them.

 

[SeoulMan]

Where and how do I make suggestions?

 

[saliotthomas]

Peder,
About book jacket comments, i must say that it would take a thread of it's own for sometime one can read the most amazing statement on them.The worst been when they try to define the style of an author by throwing few name in the shaker like this "think Tolstoy writing james Bond with the logical rigour of sherlock holmes...." the gardian.
I'll try to think of WWI book,there might be few in French,as for the remarque about the change,my father made the same reflexion without being able to elaborate.Sometimes it in the air..

 

[Libra]

Where and how do I make suggestions?

Made a new thread for October suggestions here:http://www.bookandreader.com/forums/suggestions-voting-archive/16785-october-2008-book-group-suggestions.html#post256546

 

[Peder]

Good idea, Libra!
Dos Passos might not be so much fun, but Fitzgerald could stand a chance. I'll read up a little on them.

 

[Peder]

Saliotthomas,
Indeed one should (almost) never believe anything one reads on book jackets!
But many thanks for your post because it brings back to mind Erich Maria Remarque, whose name has been below my radar screen for some time now.

 

[pontalba]

Peder, I've only read one by Erich Maria Remarque, Arch of Triumph [WWII] and can truthfully say I enjoyed it tremendously. Part of my enjoyment I blush to add may be my memories of Charles Boyer playing the role of the doomed doctor.
I read The Magus many years ago, and only remember the scene described as the Front, no man's land between fronts at least during WWI, gruesome indeed and in no way a comparison to what I've read of A Farewell to Arms.

I'm still stalled in Farewell. Life has grabbed me by the throat lately and I haven't done any reading at all. I hope to finish it. I will finish it. I'm not terribly motivated though I must admit.

 

[silverseason]

Regarding World War I, Erich Maria Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front was a stronger anti-war book than the Hemingway.

I also remember Robert Graves Goodbye to All That. Not a novel, but a memoir and very strong.

There must be others.

 

[SeoulMan]

A Farewell to Arms doesn't work for me as a war novel or as a romance novel. Perhaps the publisher thought it best to use the "war novel" angle to sell the book?