Ken Kesey: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

[Oldhomehaibane]

So I've been reading One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey, and I'm about to page 100 and having problems with it.

It certainly has nothing to do with Kesey's writing. His style is amazing, one of the better writers I've read.

The problem is with the themes, and what the book is trying to say.

The most obvious message that we think of is probably that it's about a heroic, messianic struggle against conformity...

That's fine, I guess...the problem is, it's all so tangled up in racism and sexism in this book.

Just look at the African American characters in this book. They're all portrayed as mean sodomites who abuse and are just all around terrible to the patients, and they stand with Miss Ratched as oppressors.

Miss Ratched seems to represent a demasculinization of society, the woman dominating the man, and in this book that is portrayed as an ultimate evil of evils. McMurphy refers to her as a "ball-cutter" and Harding in a telling analogy describes the patients of the ward as "rabbits" and Miss Ratched as the "wolf".

Man...was Ken Kesey really a racist and sexist jerk? Because if that's the only way to swallow this good and evil parable, I'm not sure I can stomach it, regardless of whatever praise it has gotten.

I've dealt with what I perceived to be sexist messages in Jack Kerouac's On the Road and came to regard that as a literary masterpiece...but with One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest I'm not sure if I can come to terms with or look past its flaws. They're so glaring. They're against everything I believe in, as a feminist who also happens to look at race as a complete non-issue, holding the position that all humans are equals and that even what we perceive as culture is simply relative to our geographical location, economic standing, parental influences, etc, and wishing for a truly color-blind society. I must say that despite the excellent writing, and I must stress that I do think the writing is great, I'm a bit disgusted by the book.

 

[CattiGuen]

You're words remind me of a discussion in my English class a few years ago. We were reading the novel and a student brought up the same issues that you just did and the same case against it to out teacher. My teacher (though I'm not saying he was right) replied by saying that maybe Kesey's intention was to make you see all these social problems (demand to conform, sexism, and racism) together in the same environment so that you can associate them with eachother. Well, I'm not sure if I'm stating it right but basically Kesey included the feeling of sexism and racism so that you can feel the disgust and kind of relate it with society's demand to conform. If that makes any sense...

 

[Peder]

Oldhome
I am sitting here with my jaw just about dropped down to the floor in astonishment at the plot details you presented for One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest. I haven't read the book, but have certainly heard of it any number of times, and I am thoroughly amazed that I have never seen or heard a hint of those aspects of the plot ever being mentioned. I too would be thoroughly aghast and, given the prominence of such issues, am left wondering how that can have been. Or have I really been living deeper in a cave than I have ever thought? Which, incidentally is not to question the accuracy of your post, because I agree with the horrified reaction 100% and have been allied with the promotion of equality in all forms for a long time now (almost needless to say). I am just simply stunned by this first post that I have read here this morning. Maybe this is old hat to others here, but it is certainly news to me! And in that sense I am glad to have started reading this discussion.

Peder

 

[Motokid]

This is fiction right?

Isn't it an interesting twist, considering the time the book was originally written to have a female, and blacks both ruling over white men?

Look at it from that angle. Who usually plays the mean, agressive oppressor when considering male to female, and black to white?

This book takes the norm and flips it entirely.

Could that in itself be an interesting twist?

 

[Stewart]

This is fiction right?

Isn't it an interesting twist, considering the time the book was originally written to have a female, and blacks both ruling over white men?

Look at it from that angle. Who usually plays the mean, agressive oppressor when considering male to female, and black to white?

This book takes the norm and flips it entirely.

Could that in itself be an interesting twist?

Have you read the book? From that post I get the impression you've just looked up some information about it online.

 

[Motokid]

I read it ages ago....the movie sticks more in my mind than the book....I think it was high school when I read it...which is 20 plus years ago...it's probably been at least 10 years since I saw the movie...

I was just asking a simple question. You got a white woman in Ratchet as the main villian over McMurphy (white) and the others in the ward....and black ward attendants...when your typical "prison" situation would normally have white males in the dominant authority positions.....

It was just a simple question of looking at it in another light...that's all....

 

[Stewart]

Only because you did your typical writing a post covered with questions and none of your own opinion did I think that.

 

[mehastings]

Isn't it an interesting twist, considering the time the book was originally written to have a female, and blacks both ruling over white men?

It is satire. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is one of the greatest works of satire written in the twentieth century.

This is fiction right?

Sortof. The story is fictional, but many of the lesser characters are written out of Kesey's own experiences working in a mental institution.

Interestingly, Nurse Ratched has become something of an icon in the medical field. Whenever you are talking about miserable burned out nurses (usually on psych or emergency departments) you refer to them as "nurse ratched". I doubt most people even know where it comes from.

 

[Motokid]

Is Misery a book that paints women into a less than flattering catagory?
Could it be considered sexist?

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

I honestly think that this a tad bit of an over-exaggeration/warped sense of what is actually happening in the story.

First off, no, I do not think that he was racist. The main character, Cheif, is an American Indian, and he is certainly not portrayed in a negative way. Having the three black people as oppressors show nothing - you seem to have forgotten all of the other white people (who outnumber the three blacks by far) in the story who opress the patients as well. And if your problem is with having the black guys as janitors, then you have to remember the period in which this was written. It was most probably normal to have black guys as janitors.

And second, I don't believe him to be sexist either. I fail to see how having a woman in charge is portrayed as the "evil of all evils" in the book. They describe the patients as rabbits and the Nurse as the wolf, because this is the way it truely is. I would consider it sexist if nobody but men were shown as the villians in books. Do you really think that any author who includes a female as the lead villian in a book is sexist? I find this to be a little rediculous, to be honest. Surely showing that some women are strong and in-control, rather than just being timid little housewives, is a positive thing? Is it not repeated throughout the book how smart the Nurse is? And how cunning? Not to mention how strong-willed and in-control she is? Or is that sexist, too?

Oh, and I guess I had better add that I'm female and I also wish for a colour-blind society, before people start attacking me and saying that I'm sexist and a racist also

 

[Oldhomehaibane]

So I've stayed up until now, 2:30 in the morning, reading One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I've been reading it all day, read 120 pages, finishing it.

After finishing it I can say that a lot of my complaints with the book were baseless.

This is one of the better books I've read. 8.5/10

I'm definitely getting the movie for this, and I hope it's good.

Now I have to get to sleep, my eyes are hurting so much. God.

 

[CattiGuen]

Oh yes the movie. Beautious. I wouldve never thought of Nicholson as McMurphy but goddamn if he didnt do a hell of a job. The guy that plays "chief broom" is flippin awesome. The movie is deserving of all of its academy awards and its a must own dvd.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

And as an addition to MonkeyCatcher's post:

What gender were nurses typically at this time? Certainly not male. The men became doctors the women became nurses, end of story. Had the head nurse been a man the book would not really have been realistic in that sense.

I'm not even sure we can assume that Kesey gave the gender of the nurse any thought. The head nurse of the ward is to be the villain and the gender of said nurse will likely have been a given for anyone in that day and age.

That said, it is a long time ago I read this book so I remember no exact details. Only that I found it a very thought provoking book.

 

[Morty]

First of all, forget about a "colour-blind" society. That's not going to happen, people will always be prejudiced in one way or another.

Secondly, don't be so marxist in your literary view; don't judge yesterday's books by today's moral standards.

Thirdly, are you saying you only wish to read politically correct feminist novels that are completely objective toward their characters? That doesn't exist, because man is by nature a subjective animal. You will be offended when reading certain books.

Sorry to be so aggressive in my tone.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

First of all, forget about a "colour-blind" society. That's not going to happen, people will always be prejudiced in one way or another.

True but it's everyone's prerogative to dream and hope.

Secondly, don't be so marxist in your literary view; don't judge yesterday's books by today's moral standards.

With this I can only agree. It reminded me of a small tidbit my Lit Professor mentioned when we read Huck Finn. When writing the book Mark Twain had his wife beta-read it(though I doubt they called it that ) and she pointed out that even though it was no longer polite to use the term 'nigger' that was what people said in the period in which Huck Finn is set, so people in the book should be using that term and not some modern politically correct term. This is the work the authors do to make the books sound and feel real, as readers we should do the same and at least make a small effort to remember that the mindset of the past is not the mindset of today - not in novels either.

Thirdly, are you saying you only wish to read politically correct feminist novels that are completely objective toward their characters? That doesn't exist, because man is by nature a subjective animal. You will be offended when reading certain books.

Hehe, no, I don't think that's what Oldhome is saying. She was clearly writing that post while being flustered about what she'd read - as she stated in her second post, when she'd further and had drawn other conclusions - you sound like you may have missed that post of hers You're right about your observation about subjectivity though, and I'd suppose that exactly is the reason we read books, to see a situation from a different subjective perspective than our own

Lastly (and admittedly somewhat off-topic), feminism is hardly something to include in your example. Some people are actually offended by feminism, and personally I think some feminists have taken their cause much too far, so that is by no means a neutral factor to appear in your list for a 'neutral' book Just my little quip - couldn't help it

 

[Oldhomehaibane]

Hehe, no, I don't think that's what Oldhome is saying. She was clearly writing that post while being flustered about what she'd read - as she stated in her second post, when she'd further and had drawn other conclusions - you sound like you may have missed that post of hers You're right about your observation about subjectivity though, and I'd suppose that exactly is the reason we read books, to see a situation from a different subjective perspective than our own

Yes, yes, but I'm a guy.

Well that adds absolutely nothing whatsoever to the discussion but just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Jemima Aslana]

Ack, I seem to be making a habit of getting people's gender wrong these days. Sorry about that. I must defend myself, though, I simply caught onto the fact that feminism was suggested as a criteria you might demand, and I thus concluded: Ah, must be a woman then, since I find it is seldom men who prefer feminism related stuff.

Just great I shall have to try and stop making a fool of myself - posting at 4.30 in the morning probably won't help.