Labor Unions - Do we need them anymore?

[lindaj07]

Again, in an ideal world. A small owner can not force a big company to buy them out but big companies can force small owners to sell out, they do it all the time. As for big companies operating at the same level as small business? I actually saw this happening in Cairo in 1992 when there was one BIG HAMBURGER fast food take away that shall remain nameless. In 1992 this huge multinational hamburger chain had one very small place in a tiny back street in Cairo. In 1999, there were 4 shops. That's seven years growth. So big companies clearly can and do have an interest in small ownerships. I don't know about in the US but here in UK most people are faced with the possiblity of working till 70 and not retiring at 50. This is due to under funding in pension schemes. Again, in this case, it is trade union organisations who are doing the fighting. So to get back to the original issue about whether or not we need TUs today (or words to that effect) I would say yes, more than ever.

The small owner almost always has a choice. They may sell out for various reasons, but they have a choice. Retirement is a good reason. If you could retire at the age of 50 by selling your business to a larger chain vs. working your ass off for another 15 years in your small company which would you prefer to do?

A large, national chain can not operate on the same level as a privately run "small business" and therefore, of coarse, does not have any interst in buying them out.

While there may be a million McDonalds and Burger Kings, there is also room for a privately run, family owned, "Hamburger Hut" (place I just made up).
McD's and B.K. can offer better benefits and maybe other compensation packages....but Hamburger Hut has the benefits of being a more personal esablishment and possibly higher flexibility. They serve a niche market. They can do things to your burger that the larger chains can't.

The Prussian: I shall certainly look into that book. Thanks.

 

[Motokid]

People will have to work longer because:
a. they are now living longer
b. they are not saving enough
c. they are spending too much

Today, more than ever, education is available to more people
Technology is available to more people
Laywers are available to more people
Organizations for Underprivaledged are available
Watchdog groups are everywhere
News groups are just waiting for bigger and better scandles
Grants for education are everywhere
Companies are paying for education

The individual has a greater capacity to improve themself now more than ever.

There should be less need/desire for the masses to take care of the individual now than there was in the early 1900's.

 

[lindaj07]

Why should there? So long as there are seriously underprivileged people in any section of any society, there will always be a place for trade unions.

People will have to work longer because:
a. they are now living longer
b. they are not saving enough
c. they are spending too much

Today, more than ever, education is available to more people
Technology is available to more people
Laywers are available to more people
Organizations for Underprivaledged are available
Watchdog groups are everywhere
News groups are just waiting for bigger and better scandles
Grants for education are everywhere
Companies are paying for education

The individual has a greater capacity to improve themself now more than ever.

There should be less need/desire for the masses to take care of the individual now than there was in the early 1900's.

 

[novella]

Small business at the mercy of larger ones? No, not always.

Small businesses have the benefit of small overhead. Small businesses have the advantage of being able to cater to niche markets. S.B.'s can react to market swings much quicker. S.B.'s can go the extra mile for their customers that larger volume discounters can't.

There are two ways to be profitable. Large volume/low prices.....or small volume/higher prices. With those higher prices must come some distinct advantages. Customer service. Personal attention. Support and maintenance.
Convienence. (spelling?)

Small convienence stores like 7-11's usually have higher prices for things than larger super markets, yet they still stay in business and manage to be profitable.

Profit is the name of the game. It's the reason for being in business in the first place. The owner has a responcibility to both customers and employees. Without one, you can't have the other.

Pursuit of profit is the name of the game for owners and employees. But if the owners don't make a profit they close the business and there are no employees. It's the trickle down effect. The ones taking the largest risks, and making the biggest decisions are the ones who should profit first and most.

All large scale business's started out as very small scale. They grew into giants. It's the small scale businesses that shape and change the world.

Moto, the arguments here are deeply flawed.

For one thing, let's evaluate relative risk to an individual. Who is more at risk, a member of the Walton family when Walmart brings in a new product line or opens a new store, or a small boutique owner who has to put up personal collateral in order to start her business, whose rent is out of her control, whose suppliers owe her no allegiances, and whose single storefront can be affected by any number of local catastophes?

For another, comparing a big-box store with a 7-11 is spurious. 7-11 is a huge chain. Huge chains can easily undersell local retailers for the period of time it takes to put the local store out of business. This is standard practice for large chains.

Further, small businesses DO NOT have small overhead relative to their stock and profit margins. The economy of scale is a huge factor in the success of large chains.

 

[novella]

People will have to work longer because:
a. they are now living longer
b. they are not saving enough
c. they are spending too much

Today, more than ever, education is available to more people
Technology is available to more people
Laywers are available to more people
Organizations for Underprivaledged are available
Watchdog groups are everywhere
News groups are just waiting for bigger and better scandles
Grants for education are everywhere
Companies are paying for education

The individual has a greater capacity to improve themself now more than ever.

There should be less need/desire for the masses to take care of the individual now than there was in the early 1900's.

More companies paid for education 20 years ago. Twenty years ago, health care was only a very small portion of the average family's expenditure. Now it can be thousand a month to be individually insured. (My family pays $1100 a month because we are not employed by a large company.)

Housing costs have skyrocketed in the past 20 years, relative to income levels. Housing in most areas has increased tenfold, compared with income increases of about threefold. A decent 1 BR apt is at least 1200/month. That alone means spending 15K/year AFTER TAXES on rent. Which necessitates an income of at least 25K just to pay rent, nothing else.

Having a college education (especially a second or third rate one) does not guarantee an income of any kind. Pathetically a lot of people graduate from second-rate American colleges illiterate and without any saleable skills.

I would estimate a living wage (health care coverage, rent, money for gas and food) to be at least $30K/year gross, and that's pretty tight even for one person. What percentage of Americans are making that or more, how many people are they supporting, and what if something happens to them? And what would you save out of that, for retirement?

Addendum: the average American income for a family of 4 is $32,500. That, of course, means that AT LEAST half the families in the country earn less. But when you factor in the amount that top-one-percent billionaires make and rebalance the mean, it says that the large majority of American families of 4 take in less than $32,500/year gross, i.e., before taxes. Geez, that's a sorry picture.

 

[leckert]

Sam Walton was not born with a huge chain of discount department stores bursting from his ass.

Ray Croc was not born with a huge chain of hamburger restaurants bursting from his ass.

I do not have a huge anything bursting from my ass, but I would like to one day, and I think this is the most likely country wherein that could happen.

If developing a successful chain of stores means some people get rich...

Hooray! Rich!

Rich does not equal evil.

Evil equals evil.

WalMart and McDonalds employ a bazillion people and contribute tons-o-cash to charity. A mom and pop shop can't do that.

Mom and Pop places absolutely must find a niche quickly, and learn how to keep their costs down in order to survive the crucial first five years.

We must maintain tax incentives, and should probably increase them, for small business owners.

We need small business.

We need large business.

Can't we all just g-g-get along?

 

[leckert]

Addendum: the average American income for a family of 4 is $32,500. That, of course, means that AT LEAST half the families in the country earn less. But when you factor in the amount that top-one-percent billionaires make and rebalance the mean, it says that the large majority of American families of 4 take in less than $32,500/year gross, i.e., before taxes. Geez, that's a sorry picture.

How does that become the fault or responsibility of the rich?

 

[novella]

leckert, I think you're drawing conclusions from what I've written that are not there. I believe that society as a whole has a responsibility to take care of the weaker and less able. I don't think large corporations are 'evil'. I don't know where you get that idea.

I'm just pointing out a standard corporate practice. If some corporate practices are unethical, though legal, well, I think that should be consideration of whether I choose to patronize them.

Further, I believe philanthropy is alive and well, but trade unions also serve an important purpose in levelling the economic playing field.

 

[leckert]

leckert, I think you're drawing conclusions from what I've written that are not there. I believe that society as a whole has a responsibility to take care of the weaker and less able. I don't think large corporations are 'evil'. I don't know where you get that idea.

I'm just pointing out a standard corporate practice. If some corporate practices are unethical, though legal, well, I think that should be consideration of whether I choose to patronize them.

Further, I believe philanthropy is alive and well, but trade unions also serve an important purpose in levelling the economic playing field.

The way I read your statement seemed that you were saying the poor were poor because of the rich.

I reread it and know now that I may have misinterpretted your meaning.

sorry for that. Being a fiscally conservative person, I tend to over react to those who would throw stones at the rich, and who feel the top earners in the country should be penalized for their success by paying an inordinate tax rate.

Also, I wasn't directing my self solely at you. I thought I sensed an "Anti-Capitalism" thing starting to well up, which would mean I would have to leave this thread, and go count to a billion or something!

 

[Kenny Shovel]

Sam Walton was not born with a huge chain of discount department stores bursting from his ass.

Ray Croc was not born with a huge chain of hamburger restaurants bursting from his ass.

I do not have a huge anything bursting from my ass, but I would like to one day, and I think this is the most likely country wherein that could happen.

Actually I think over the last 10-15 years the country where that is most likey to happen is probably Russia, they certainly have a lot of damn rich businessmen although Sergo could probably give you a better idea about them.

Regards,

K S

 

[leckert]

Actually I think over the last 10-15 years the country where that is most likey to happen is probably Russia, they certainly have a lot of damn rich businessmen although Sergo could probably give you a better idea about them.

Regards,

K S

Yeah, China was really booming for a while there, too, from what I understand.

I guess I should have said the most likely country for this to happen in, where I LIVE!



Thanks, Kenny. You are, as always, furry and informative!

 

[novella]

I only mentioned billionaires' income because those numbers distort the 'average' American income quite a lot. For every guy who earns 700 million per year, there are hundreds earning under the 'average.' I'm just pointing out a mathematical construct of this particular statistic.

 

[leckert]

I only mentioned billionaires' income because those numbers distort the 'average' American income quite a lot. For every guy who earns 700 million per year, there are hundreds earning under the 'average.' I'm just pointing out a mathematical construct of this particular statistic.

right.

see, "math" was never my strong suit! (that's why I didn't join the "Statistics" forum! )

I figured out what you were saying after my foot flew into the air!

 

[Kenny Shovel]

Thanks, Kenny. You are, as always, furry and informative!

Cute as a hamster with a clapper board too...

Mind you it looks like we should all be moving to Ireland anyway...
Best country to live

 

[novella]

The single biggest contributing factor in the rapid growth of the number of billionaires in the world over the past two years (number increased by about 50%) is the weakened dollar.

 

[leckert]

I am shocked at the way the dollar has plummeted.


I don't know much about all this financial stuff, and this is probably off topic (sorry Moto!) but was the plummet due to the advent of the Euro?

 

[lindaj07]

Hasn't it got something to do with... errrr... let me guess.... wars in oil rich countries?

I am shocked at the way the dollar has plummeted.


I don't know much about all this financial stuff, and this is probably off topic (sorry Moto!) but was the plummet due to the advent of the Euro?

 

[Kenny Shovel]

Hasn't it got something to do with... errrr... let me guess.... wars in oil rich countries?

Oh, thats makes sense; my guess that Wall Street paniced after the Siegfried & Roy tiger attack seems so off-target now...

 

[The Prussian]

What was interesting about the book I recommended earlier in this thread is that I verified a lot of it first-hand. I belong to one of the unions discussed in the book and my local and council behave in the same manner described in the book.

When I started my job 20 years ago I was very excited to enter a union "shop". My parents belonged to the UFCW. My father was a chief steward for years. I listened to union talk at the supper table and decided as a child that unions were a good thing.

At that time in our country's history they were. I don't believe in them now as I did when I was a child in my parent's home.

Big Labor is bringing business to its knees and we are all suffering for it. As I write this, two more airlines are in the news because they're declaring bankruptcy. Unreasonable union demands have already killed a couple of other airlines.

This book explains what is going on. Some of what's inside:

Why unions do not perform for or care about their membership

How unions evade the IRS

Why law enforcement doesn't usually prosecute people for union violence

What your dues are really used for

How today's labor movement is ruining the economy

How Fair Share hurts the very people it is supposed to protect

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-union, but I do object to my dues being used for political purposes when my union cannot even negotiate a reasonable contract for me. My colleagues and I are $3 to $5 per hour behind the cost-of-living curve. We have to work overtime to survive.

AFSCME spent $128 million on the Dem presidential campaign when it should have been using our dues for contract negotiation. Our union doesn't remember who employs it.

Thank you for listening to my $.02. I will be happy to further discuss this subject and this book with anyone who is interested.

The Prussian

 

[lindaj07]

This post (below) is somewhat confusing to me...
Can we clarify please:
Are TUs too powerful and bringing (simultaneously) two airlines to their knees?
Or:
Are TUs crap because they can't negotiate a decent wage for their members?

It can't be both. Airlines declaring bankruptcy have to blame something. Blaming Trade Unions is not exactly an original form of scapegoating!

Come on, (so to speak) Off the fence with you, it's make your mind up time!

What was interesting about the book I recommended earlier in this thread is that I verified a lot of it first-hand. I belong to one of the unions discussed in the book and my local and council behave in the same manner described in the book.

When I started my job 20 years ago I was very excited to enter a union "shop". My parents belonged to the UFCW. My father was a chief steward for years. I listened to union talk at the supper table and decided as a child that unions were a good thing.

At that time in our country's history they were. I don't believe in them now as I did when I was a child in my parent's home.

Big Labor is bringing business to its knees and we are all suffering for it. As I write this, two more airlines are in the news because they're declaring bankruptcy. Unreasonable union demands have already killed a couple of other airlines.

This book explains what is going on. Some of what's inside:

Why unions do not perform for or care about their membership

How unions evade the IRS

Why law enforcement doesn't usually prosecute people for union violence

What your dues are really used for

How today's labor movement is ruining the economy

How Fair Share hurts the very people it is supposed to protect

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-union, but I do object to my dues being used for political purposes when my union cannot even negotiate a reasonable contract for me. My colleagues and I are $3 to $5 per hour behind the cost-of-living curve. We have to work overtime to survive.

AFSCME spent $128 million on the Dem presidential campaign when it should have been using our dues for contract negotiation. Our union doesn't remember who employs it.

Thank you for listening to my $.02. I will be happy to further discuss this subject and this book with anyone who is interested.

The Prussian