Labor Unions - Do we need them anymore?

[Motokid]

Is there any reason to need a labor Union anymore? I can understand why they were important at the dawn of the industrial revolution. I can understand the need they served. But, it is now 2005. People have choices and the ability to move around, and change jobs, and create their own opportunities.

I have never worked for a Union. If I don't like what I'm getting paid, or what benefits I receive I have some choices I can make. I can go back to school. I can find another job. I can remain where I am. Pretty simple.

I know some people who work for Unions who've been forced to go on strike because the Union decided they needed a better benefits package and some percentage increase in wages for the workers. Should that be legal? Should the employees be able to strike to get more?

This may be more of an American issue. I have no idea what goes on in other countries. Why should an assembly worker in a General Motors plant be in a Union and get huge benefits packages and $10.00 more per hour than an assembly worker in a non-union manufacturing facility? Why should the GM worker be able to strike to get more, but the non-union worker would simply get fired for walking off the job?

 

[Robert]

I was wondering where you would strike next, Moto. Interesting subject.

If you want to know everything that's wrong with Labor Unions, you don't have to look any further then the problems that GM, Ford, and Chrysler are having staying afloat.

 

[Motokid]

I would expect SFG75 to offer the opposing arguement...being a teacher....I think most teachers are part of a union.....my guess is he's back to work now that Labor Day has passed.....but there must be some others here who are members of a Union, or have experience through family or job?

 

[Robert]

My father was UAW. When he retired, the union put a cap on his income at a ridiculously low level.

Unions suck.

 

[Ronny]

My Father-inlaw had been forced to go on strike awhile back, he wasn't to happy about it. He said he had to join the union, he had to pay dues and when they went on strike he had to as well. He was not in support of the strike and so he just stayed home and waited for them to tell him when he could go back to work.

I was once part of a union, when I was waitressing part of the hiring process was you had to sign on with the union and pay dues. I never heard anything from them though and the dues weren't much so I didn't ever think twice of it.

 

[Kenny Shovel]

Is there any reason to need a labor Union anymore?

Maybe the best people to answer are those on or around the minimum wage? Has union representation helped them in any way or been of no real use? Have they even had the opportunity for union membership?
My own experiences have led me to not particularly trust the union representation I had in the past, but then I’d still trust them more than the HR reps from the companies I’ve worked for.

But, it is now 2005. People have choices and the ability to move around, and change jobs, and create their own opportunities.

Many but not all.
I often find that choice and freedom are linked to how much money you have. To quote friends of mine in the Ukraine, “What’s the point in now having the freedom to travel abroad if we can’t afford to do it?”
Perhaps one of the things we’ve learnt from the recent events in New Orleans is that however prosperous a country we live in there are always some who’s financial circumstances mean they have less opportunities than we would like.

 

[Motokid]

I can't really think of any union jobs that hover around minimum wage.....most union jobs I know of are either teachers unions, or construction type unions like plumbers, pipefitters, steelworkers...., or auto workers unions.

Most of the people working in McDonalds/Burger Kings or cleaning offices at night are not part of a union from what I understand.

 

[Motokid]

It does not take a national disaster to understand that some have more than others....that's only natural. There are plenty who are forced into poverty, and plenty who, for the lack of a better word, chose to be in poverty...the best any city, state, country can do is try to offer the opportunity for most people to work their way towards success (however you chose to define success)....It's impossible to not have needy people in this world. It's impossible to not have poor, poverty stricken areas in this world. They have existed since the dawn of time, and will continue to exist for the forseeable (spelling?)future.

There are theories by some, that if all the worlds wealth was divided up equally amoung every living person, it would only take a decade or so before the distribution would have reversed itself right back to where it stands today.

 

[ions]

Wow. Uh yeah we do. VERY much so. As much now as we ever have.

Sigh. A long time ago I had decided that I was staying out of political discussions online. Particularly with people from certain nations. My only suggestion is to start reading what may be considered left wing propaganda without the right wing coloured glasses. I'd also think long and hard about the econimic policies implied here as well. Sad stuff to me.

Ever read a post-apocalyptic novel and think "I can't wait! The world will be so much better off!"?

 

[Motokid]

I'd prefer it if you would offer up an arguement or a position which could be discussed....I don't know why there's a need for Unions. You seem to think there's a need, now more than ever.....please explain why you think that?

Most of the people I've known on a personal level have never worked for a union. I don't see the need. Show me the need.

 

[ions]

If you want to know everything that's wrong with Labor Unions, you don't have to look any further then the problems that GM, Ford, and Chrysler are having staying afloat.

Heh. That has nothing to do with Unions. They make REALLY shitty cars. LOL. Unions.

 

[lindaj07]

Wouldn't you agree that the car industry in USA is having difficulties because cars can be produced much more cheaply in eg Mexico? Wouldn't you also agree that this is partly because Mexican car workers are paid so much less than US car workers? This is fact, not fiction, there is loads of evidence out there, check it out.
Given this is the case, wouldn't you say there is a greater need for Trade Unions now and insurance that Mexican workers are better paid?
To blame Trade Unions for the state of American car industry is to give TU's too much credit.
You are right, Robert, it is an interesting subject, but maybe not so black and white as you seem to believe?

I was wondering where you would strike next, Moto. Interesting subject.

If you want to know everything that's wrong with Labor Unions, you don't have to look any further then the problems that GM, Ford, and Chrysler are having staying afloat.

 

[Motokid]

Many of the popular Japanese cars are manufactured right here in America....The American auto industry has shot themselves in the foot with horrible manufacturing practices and shoddy workmanship that has nothing to do with Mexico or foreign labor.

But take the auto union out of the picture....why is there a need for a carpenters union, a plumbers union, a teachers union......

What service to society does any of those unions serve that a non-union organization couldn't?

 

[lindaj07]

Ions is right but don't let us brow beat you Robert!!

I happen to agree with Ions, but please don't think we are ganging up on you Robert!! I am interested in discussing this topic but didn't realise you and Ions were online when I wrote my last message!!

Wow. Uh yeah we do. VERY much so. As much now as we ever have.

Sigh. A long time ago I had decided that I was staying out of political discussions online. Particularly with people from certain nations. My only suggestion is to start reading what may be considered left wing propaganda without the right wing coloured glasses. I'd also think long and hard about the econimic policies implied here as well. Sad stuff to me.

Ever read a post-apocalyptic novel and think "I can't wait! The world will be so much better off!"?

 

[Robert]

It’s really an interesting subject, isn’t it? I have to say that we don’t have unions in my line of work, but we get paid a decent wage and benefits, as determined by the labor market. It’s actually in the best interest of employers to pay a competitive wage and benefits or risk losing important employees to other companies. We get paid holidays, vacation time, a 401k plan, medical and dental benefits, and discounts at some retailers. Not bad.

One of the things I mentioned earlier is that US Auto makers have huge financial issues brought on by the unions. They (auto makers) have to pay huge sums of money to insurance companies and to retirees, making it difficult to keep their company books in the green. In fact, it was one of problems that led S&P to reduce Ford and GM to junk bond status awhile back.

Is there any evidence that workers get enough out of unions to justify the money they pay in? From everything that I’ve seen over the years, unions are more trouble then they’re worth.

 

[Robert]

Heh. That has nothing to do with Unions. They make REALLY shitty cars. LOL. Unions.

Not so. In fact General Motors is rated number two in the world in quality behind Toyota.

 

[lindaj07]

Trade Unionism: It's the principle as much as anything else.
In this transnational economy that we live in, employers are more and more organised than ever. It is rare indeed to find a philanthropic employer/capitalist so it is NOW MORE THAN EVER important that workers organise, like the employers, in order that we don't go back to Industrial Revolution standards of work and pay. Further more, it is necessary to organise transnationally, rather than simply nationally, as bosses do.
Mexican car workers make cars for the US market. Car workers in Mexico can't afford to buy the cars they make. For that reason, it has everything the state of the US car industry. You can't section off "shoddy workmanship" and ignore the rest of the problems

Many of the popular Japanese cars are manufactured right here in America....The American auto industry has shot themselves in the foot with horrible manufacturing practices and shoddy workmanship that has nothing to do with Mexico or foreign labor.

But take the auto union out of the picture....why is there a need for a carpenters union, a plumbers union, a teachers union......

What service to society does any of those unions serve that a non-union organization couldn't?

 

[Kenny Shovel]

please don't think we are ganging up on you Robert!!

I'm not ganging up on you Robert, I'm just standing next to you because you've got a cool bike.

 

[Robert]

Wouldn't you agree that the car industry in USA is having difficulties because cars can be produced much more cheaply in eg Mexico? Wouldn't you also agree that this is partly because Mexican car workers are paid so much less than US car workers? This is fact, not fiction, there is loads of evidence out there, check it out.
Given this is the case, wouldn't you say there is a greater need for Trade Unions now and insurance that Mexican workers are better paid?
To blame Trade Unions for the state of American car industry is to give TU's too much credit. Reagan and Neo-Liberalism saw to the decline in TU organisations, in America while Thatcher did the same in UK.
You are right, Robert, it is an interesting subject, but maybe not so black and white as you seem to believe?

That's partly true. But ask yourself why it cost so much money to make a car in the US. GM for instance, doesn’t make money from the cars they make; their money is made in financing.

Remember that labor is the single greatest cost to a company.

 

[lindaj07]

Of course its worth having unions. If not, you rely on the generosity of your employer. If things get tight financially and you lose all these perks you mention below, how do you protect yourself if you are not in a union?
Safety in numbers etc.
Are unions more bother than they are worth? Do workers get enough out of their unions? Why don't you turn the question around? The membership IS the union. YOU as a member, make the difference or not as the case may be.

It’s really an interesting subject, isn’t it? I have to say that we don’t have unions in my line of work, but we get paid a decent wage and benefits, as determined by the labor market. It’s actually in the best interest of employers to pay a competitive wage and benefits or risk losing important employees to other companies. We get paid holidays, vacation time, a 401k plan, medical and dental benefits, and discounts at some retailers. Not bad.

One of the things I mentioned earlier is that US Auto makers have huge financial issues brought on by the unions. They (auto makers) have to pay huge sums of money to insurance companies and to retirees, making it difficult to keep their company books in the green. In fact, it was one of problems that led S&P to reduce Ford and GM to junk bond status awhile back.

Is there any evidence that workers get enough out of unions to justify the money they pay in? From everything that I’ve seen over the years, unions are more trouble then they’re worth.