• Welcome to BookAndReader!

    We LOVE books and hope you'll join us in sharing your favorites and experiences along with your love of reading with our community. Registering for our site is free and easy, just CLICK HERE!

    Already a member and forgot your password? Click here.

Lionel Shriver: We Need To Talk About Kevin

Jennifer said:
That's another thing as well -
is Eva just paranoid about the toilet thing, or is he really being spiteful in not learning?

Yes, so many factors can be debated within this. Being a non-seed planter I’m curious to get the Lobster’s take on some of this stuff, being a pop and all.
Clueless, you have kids?

Jennifer said:
The bit where she threw him across the room made me shiver, but I could also understand it.

Me too. And a principal factor in my unmovable non-desire to have Little People in my life (no offense to midgets and dwarfs, they’re welcome). That would be me. I have the patience of a mosquito.

Jennifer said:
And it's interesting that it was at this point that Kevin started to see his mother as "interesting", similar to himself, maybe a possible threat to his charade. This was continued with the computer virus, where they were almost bonding over their respective oddities.

Indeed. Indeed.

That's so cruel! How could you be so nasty. :D

Come on! It’s not like I said, “the Fantastic Four save the world, beat up Doctor Doom AND the ending could easily lead to, guess what, a sequel!!”
*that* may have been cruel.
But I didn’t say it.
j
 
jay said:
Clueless, you have kids?


Yes, but I am far from the end so there is not much I can read on this thread at the moment, jumping from one spoiler to another. I will discuss whatever it is when I finish.
 
clueless said:
Yes, but I am far from the end so there is not much I can read on this thread at the moment, jumping from one spoiler to another. I will discuss whatever it is when I finish.

ok. Cool. We await your Motherial input.

I hope you’re enjoying (although that may not be the right word) more than you were before,
j
 
Yes, I am enjoying a lot more now that I can see more into the characters. Franklin is still too one-dimensional, but perhaps some people are.
 
One of the other people I sent this book to, a former professor of mine, isn’t much for www boards so I will share her comments here:

. . . . . . . .

j: how are you making out with Shriver?

MR: She's certainly talented.

j: Is that the extent of your review or are you not done?

MR: not done, and having a few problems with the plot/premise -- she
reminds me of a female TCB actually. I find I'm reading for the
'kick' and the sudden incisive turns, and hit the wall honesty. Also
some of the tones, and her cadences.

. . . . . . . . . .

Oh, “TCB” is T.C. Boyle, whom I turned her onto and then she included him on the sillybus (syllabus).
j
 
Ive been following this thread with interest as I'd never heard of Lionel Shriver before - shame on me.

Now my question is this. I can afford to add just one more book to my Amazon order today, and having read this thread I now want to read Shriver. So, should it be 'Kevin' or 'Bleeding Heart' ? Some advice here please....
 
francesca said:
as I'd never heard of Lionel Shriver before - shame on me.

No, shame on the media, her publisher(s) and other writers for not promoting her work.

I’m really quite baffled that I’ve _never_ seen her name pop up before while reading interviews with her contemporary female writers Ann Beattie, Amy Hempel, Mary Robison, Joyce Carol Oates, Jane Smiley, etc.
Needless to say I don’t mean this to be a ‘sexist’ comment, but sometimes it seems women give a bit of a nod to their gender-mates with a less competitive edge than the boys. And this does not get the men off the hook for not citing Shriver as a skilled writer/storyteller either…

Now my question is this. I can afford to add just one more book to my Amazon order today, and having read this thread I now want to read Shriver. So, should it be 'Kevin' or 'Bleeding Heart' ? Some advice here please....

I’m about 60 pages (hardcover) shy of finishing _The Bleeding Heart_, and it’s a strong, well written story, but I may have to give the nod to ‘Kevin’. Plus then you can give your comments on this thread.
Or if ‘Heart’ seems your desire, get that and I’ll send you ‘Kevin’.
j
 
jay said:
I’m about 60 pages (hardcover) shy of finishing _The Bleeding Heart_, and it’s a strong, well written story, but I may have to give the nod to ‘Kevin’. Plus then you can give your comments on this thread.
Or if ‘Heart’ seems your desire, get that and I’ll send you ‘Kevin’.
j


Jay that's such a kind thing to offer, and I thank you so much, but I am going to order 'Kevin' and if I like it I will probably order some of Shrivers other work in the next few months - once I find someone I like I do tend to buy everything I can lay my hands on. I look forward to posting about 'Kevin' asap, so I'll make that my next read. Thanks again for the thoughtful and encouraging comments.
 
francesca said:
once I find someone I like I do tend to buy everything I can lay my hands on.

Here too. Sadly some of LS’s work is in the Veddy Hard To Find category.
I managed to snag a copy of _A Perfectly Good Family_ before she got some press, but now I see that one fetches around $100 (paperback original).

Looking forward to your thoughts…
j
 
I finished at last and I withdraw everything I said in my first posts. All the things I thought did not make sense, work once you read the book to the end.
 
clueless said:
I finished at last and I withdraw everything I said in my first posts. All the things I thought did not make sense, work once you read the book to the end.

Cool.
Did you enjoy it?
j
 
I did and I will definitely read other Shriver books, but not yet. I think hers was a risky gamble though, because I would have stopped reading if I had not promised to discuss it here.

I had not read the spoilers until I finished the book and my opinions about the characters are completely different from yours and Jennifer's.
 
clueless said:
I think hers was a risky gamble though, because I would have stopped reading if I had not promised to discuss it here.

I don’t think so at all. One other person (off-list) stated her slight ambivalence toward the letter format (in the very beginning) but not enough to put the book down.
I think it _unquestionably_ works.
And since making a small comment on your original thoughts I’ve probably 3 times talked/written to someone about a situation we (i.e. ‘they were there’) were in and I didn’t feel I was over-killing the situation when I said stuff like, “and you said…”
And of course I wasn’t being overly sentimental and discourse’ing on a long-term relations blown apart by many, many factors.

And needless to say, with many if not most marriages –and certainly this one (in the book)- there is a…distance between the people.
All in all, I wouldn’t be surprised if most people look back on their lives –if they even do that- and see it as somewhat vague and almost not their own.

I had not read the spoilers until I finished the book and my opinions about the characters are completely different from yours and Jennifer's.

One of these days we should just open up the thread and let it rip. No need for spoiler indicators. (and I have a feeling the few people on-list that actually listen to recommendations not sanctioned by The Masses have already said yay/nay to this book)

But yes, I think that’s what one of the great things about this story is; different people will have a different perspective on the characters.
I’m curious as to your thoughts.
j
 
Some people are born healthy, some ill and some are genetically prone to certain illnesses but will only develop them with certain triggers in their environment, lifestyle, etc. I see Eva as that trigger (Franklin too, but less so). I don't mean Kevin would never had done anything if she had behaved in a different way. There could have been another trigger at any point in his life, but she was the reason for his actions and for choosing that particular type of actions.

Am I being too cryptic? I am trying to avoid using the spoiler blackout curtain or whatever they call it.
 

****************************************
I think we should now just let it all fly, so:
From here on out these waters contain SPOLIERS.
*************************************************

The only people I’ve discussed this book with are non-children havers. So, on the surface -as I suspected- we are all falling into 2 groups of, for lack of a better phrase, ‘who’s to blame’.

clueless said:
I see Eva as that trigger (Franklin too, but less so). I don't mean Kevin would never had done anything if she had behaved in a different way. There could have been another trigger at any point in his life,

While undoubtedly some “illnesses” (etc) are indeed bred in the bone (or womb) it will probably go unknown if psychological (non-biological ones, that is; as now some new statistic is being released on smoking pregnant woman increase the chances of inflicting their child with ADD, something like 1/3rd greater) [don’t quote me on that, it was on the radio but I wasn’t really listening] damage can be inflicted in utero.
I’m not a big fan of what most people would called Freudian stuff (that would basically mean ‘most people not knowing a gawdamn thing about Freud or his work’).
And Nature/Nurture *certainly* has its place, both theory and science – I don’t see it as a set of stages where a set-in-place “trigger” then unleashes something.

but she was the reason for his actions and for choosing that particular type of actions.

While I agree that she may have (and probably) played a part in some of KK’s defiance and stubbornness in learning to speak, eating and toilet training, to me, this is a far distance from progressing something very well beyond The Bad Seed.
 
I wasn’t talking about Freudian explanations. I don’t believe in them.



People react in different ways to a traumatic event. Many will get over it without help, others need counselling, a few will commit suicide and a very few will commit a crime. The event –trigger- was the same for all of them, but they are different not just because of their life, environment, etc. but also because their brains are different. That’s what I mean by prone to do something. Mental illness runs in families and Eva’s family was not precisely an example of mental health. But at the same time some people who are slightly unbalanced can live a perfectly normal life if nothing happens to make them flip.



We have all agreed that Eva dissembled but perhaps not to what extent she did. She tried continuously to justify herself but it’s not hard to see through her lies. She hated the kid before he was even born and then used every argument to try to justify that hate.



She starts saying that she rejected him because he had rejected her, which is absurd. Not all babies take to the nipple straight away. Once she rejected him, he would notice. Babies don’t know things, they feel them. They don’t understand words and they can’t focus but they understand tones of voice, smells, touch, much the same as animals do. Before they learn, they are not different from animals, they act by instinct. And they can tell if someone likes them or not, just the same as a dog can smell someone’s fear. Nothing Freudian there, just biology and chemistry.



So, Kevin learnt from the start that Eva did not care at all about him. Franklin did (Well, he didn’t either; he loved a son, the idea of son, an stereotype of what an American son and the relationship between father and son would be, he didn’t care for that particular boy, he never even tried to find out who his son was. But a little child would not notice the difference between that love of an stereotype and real love), so at the beginning Kev behaved in a different way with Frank. It wasn’t an act: smiling (responding) to someone who care about him; crying with someone who didn’t.



If you don’t care about a child, the child will notice and will do anything to attract your attention. If you only pay attention, when he throws a tantrum, there will be lots of tantrums every day.



I can go on explaining Kevin’s actions, but I think this post is long enough already.
 
People react in different ways to a traumatic event. Many will get over it without help, others need counselling, a few will commit suicide and a very few will commit a crime. The event –trigger- was the same for all of them, but they are different not just because of their life, environment, etc. but also because their brains are different.

I agree. But this seems to contrast with your statement of:

“but she was the reason for his actions and for choosing that particular type of actions.”

Yes, there was an…odd family situation –the trigger, if you will,- but clearly just from your above options Kevin could have 1) dealt with it 2) taken counseling or 3) off’ed himself.
I’d say “premeditates well-thought-out plan to assassinate several well-liked school mates” is not exactly number 4 on the list.
Blaming shitty parentage on such an act, an act by a pretty grown-up boy, isn’t too far removed from the absurdity of “Marylyn Manson’s music them him do it”. [a real life accusation made by the unclever for one of the real incidents]
Most especially in this day and age where the term Dysfunctional Family is a redundancy.

She tried continuously to justify herself but it’s not hard to see through her lies. She hated the kid before he was even born and then used every argument to try to justify that hate.

I think “hate” may be a strong word there and I don’t agree that she outright LIED. She told the story from her point of view. And as we know at the end, she gains nothing from ‘lying’ when the letters are just to herself.

Sadly, this situation probably happens from time to time. Women not necessarily wanting to have children and/or having children thinking it will solidify a decaying relationship.

I truly cringe at the thought of a woman becoming unhinged and weak just for a man. It makes me physically ill. –And this must be one of Shriver’s “fears”, as it’s a theme in a few of her books.-
I totally agree with Eva about the female’s absurd adoption of the male name (I really need to take a copy of the book to work to quote accurately, but I love the line –something like-, “You want me to get varicose veins for a [Franklin’s last name]!”
Among other things.


She starts saying that she rejected him because he had rejected her, which is absurd. Not all babies take to the nipple straight away.

While I obviously can not imagine what this is like, I can assume that this could be seen as some psychological blow to the mother also.
“Post-partum depression” may have seed in many areas. (let’s not get Tom Cruise involved in this…)

Before they learn, they are not different from animals, they act by instinct.

Instinct is usually, ‘when I am hungry I will drink from this thing here that seems to give out nutritional fluid’ independent of the source.

And they can tell if someone likes them or not, just the same as a dog can smell someone’s fear. Nothing Freudian there, just biology and chemistry.

I think evolution has dimmed homo sapiens skills in such areas, gawd knows I have no love for children but they never sense it from me. And a crying infant (more than likely) has very little distinguishing characteristics from ‘someone that will pick me up and change me’.
(I am talking very basics here, I am not saying Baby doesn’t know mommy from daddy, etc).
As for the Freud thing, I was directing that at you per se, just bringing it up while a potential psychology spectrum is being discussed.

so at the beginning Kev behaved in a different way with Frank. It wasn’t an act: smiling (responding) to someone who care about him; crying with someone who didn’t.

I see it differently.
(but of course am NOT saying, “you are wrong”- just my interpretation – again, that’s why I think this is a *great* book for discussion; I can’t really see many just “I loved/hated it” reviews).
So why didn’t KK make poopy in the toilet for daddy if it wasn’t an act.
All the better reason to point out ‘I know you (mumsie) don’t like me, so I’ll make good for daddy’.

If you don’t care about a child, the child will notice and will do anything to attract your attention. If you only pay attention, when he throws a tantrum, there will be lots of tantrums every day.

While true, I think this could also fall into the first things I/we mention in this (specific) post. There _could_ be a number of different reactions.

I can go on explaining Kevin’s actions, but I think this post is long enough already.

Let it flow. We aint charged by the font.

But that’s probably all for the day.
Have a good w/e.
j
 
Well, my copy of WNTTAK arrived yesterday -- from Switzerland, and it looks as if it's going to be a great read.

I'm in the middle of another book right now, so I've only taken a peek inside --I read to page 4 -- but I could tell by that much that I'm very probably going to enjoy the way this book is written.

(I've also glanced at these posts, and I can see that I should leave most of them for later, too)

So.

I just wanted to say, "Thank you, Jay, that was very kind of you!"
 
We need to Talk about Kevin Lionel Shriver

I have just finished reading this and thought it was superb. I wondered if anyone else had read it and wanted to talk about it?

It is a series of letters a mother writes to her estranged husband two years after their son goes to prison for killing seven fellow high school students and two adults. She asks herself the question 'is she to blame?' I thought it was really thought provoking from many angles and a brilliant read.
 
Back
Top