Lost in translation

[novella]

Sure, but a hands-on approach, by working alongside the translator to create the perfect translation is always a possibility.

Cheers

My point is that without knowing the second language intimately, the author can only trust the translator. It's actually not "always a possiblity" to intervene constructively.

For instance, an American book might use the phrase "step up to the plate." What phrase would be used here in French? The literal translation would be terrible, because it is a baseball idiom pointing to an analogy with much contextual meaning. The equivalent sports idiom probably does not exist in French (and would have subtle contextual cultural differences) so one would want a phrase that conveys "got ready to act" but also something more. So much is implied, including, potentially, reluctance, determination, challenge, anticipation, duelling, etc.

So the translator suggests a bunch of things, but unless the author can live and breathe in French, he or she cannot make a fair judgment or know whether the translator is suggesting the best choice available. Knowing both languages competently is definitely not enough.


The art is in what is behind the words. How can an author with one language see through that curtain?

This is such a big problem that it allows for continual improvement over centuries and centuries. Look at Heaney's Beowulf or the Lattimore trans. of Homer and how many other translations have fallen by the wayside, even though the efforts behind them were, by definition, educated, ambitious, and thoughtful. But none of them are definitive because there will always be so much speculative space between the original and the translation.

 

[Martin]

But they can talk about it, can't they. The translator, who is fluid in French (or whichever language) working alongside the author, who knows like no one else exactly what he wants to convey with what is written, can create a better translation than the translator an sich.

You must agree with that.

Cheers

 

[novella]

But they can talk about it, can't they. The translator, who is fluid in French (or whichever language) working alongside the author, who knows like no one else exactly what he wants to convey with what is written, can create a better translation than the translator an sich.

You must agree with that.

Cheers

Yes, indeed, I do agree. It is certainly better to try for the best than to forfeit the opportunity. But the author really has no way of knowing whether it has worked. He can't see through the curtain.

If someone tells me that they read Shakespeare in Japanese translation and really enjoyed it, I can only think "well, you enjoyed something, but it definitely wasn't Shakespeare" because the work is essentially (i.e., in its very essence) the English language. It would have the same resemblance to the original as shadow puppets to live theatre. Every sentence of the original refers to multiple things and has six meanings, rhymes, cadences, double entendres, jokes, historical context.

I'm not saying it's useless to translate anything, but intelligent, meaningful writing will always always lose some of it's original frame of reference. The deeper the writing, the deeper the problem.

 

[Martin]

Now that is undeniably true. We do our best, though.

Cheers

 

[novella]

Now that is undeniably true. We do our best, though.

Cheers

I know, and best of luck with that. I suspect you will do it much better than most.

It's such an interesting, complex problem.

Cheers.

 

[Ashlea]

I've also noticed that translations become dated in a way that the original never does. What's available for Homer is a good example: Alexander Pope did a translation, which is an interesting study of Pope and his time and language but not the best way to read Homer. The Victorian translations are unreadable. I agree the Lattimore is excellent, but like the Fagles even more, but I expect them both to become dated eventually.

I am always irritated when the translate operas, that never seems to work out well.

Here's a question: is poetry translatable? Some seems to be (Neruda) but I've been very frustrated with other translations (Baudelaire is a good example.) And don't even get me started on the horrid updates of Chaucer they threw at us in high school; with good teaching Middle English is accessible and much more beautiful.

 

[Martin]

Novella:

I hope I'll do better - thanks for the confidence. And it is indeed an interesting problem.

Ashlea:

Very much agree on the Chaucer remark - I love reading Chaucer in Middle English; the Canterbury Tales is/are just a delight. Old English is a nightmare, though.

Translating poetry. It is possible, I imagine, but extremely difficult. I've never done it myself, simply because I'm more of a prose-person, but as soon as we handle it at Uni I'll let you know.

Cheers

 

[novella]

Here's a question: is poetry translatable? Some seems to be (Neruda) but I've been very frustrated with other translations (Baudelaire is a good example.)

Paradoxically I think some poetry lends itself well to translation, perhaps because the aspects of language that make translation difficult--secondary references, imagery, elucidation, emotional content--are the meat of poetry, so the translator can really focus on those things. I'm thinking of Kenneth Koch who made a life's work of immersing himself in Japanese poetry and translating it to English while retaining the spirit of the original. Of course, the same difficulties apply, but in a way they are reduced because the translator can focus the effort on those aspects of the work.

To me, novels with dialogue, plot, and cultural context present a more difficult problem. The emotional content and secondary references are buried in the situations and dialogue, which are the primary things that have to be conveyed in order to tell the same story.

I have a theory that subtitled movies are often viewed as "deeper" or more "intellectual" because the oversimplification of the dialogue creates this weird space between what you see and what is said. I've seen French or Italian movies with long scenes with reams of spoken dialogue and the subtitle will be something like "I am tired of the world," or "You have the eyes of a dying man," and I just know that oversimplified written word is bringing something entirely different to the original.

 

[Cathy C]

Novella:


Very much agree on the Chaucer remark - I love reading Chaucer in Middle English; the Canterbury Tales is/are just a delight. Old English is a nightmare, though.

I agree. I thoroughly enjoyed Chaucer in Middle English. It took quite a while to figure out the rhythm, but the jokes were both more subtle and more bawdy that way.

I think the translation discussion is quite interesting, since we are in the process of trying to sell our foreign rights to our paranormal. Since both the hero and heroine are from midwestern America, a lot of the slang and cultural reference is based on American culture. Definitely an interesting proposition, and I hadn't considered it as well as I should. While it's not as important in a "beach read" as to a literary masterpiece, I still consider it important.

Do you think it would be worthwhile to consider hiring someone who is both bi-lingual in both languages AND understands the genre to review each version and make suggestions?

Cathy
Curious penguins want to know...

 

[Ou Be Low hoo]

After having recently read a couple of Paulo Cohelo's books and 'Love in the time of Cholera', the meditation on what is lost in translation is definitely something I've been thinking about...

Sometimes I think it is totally bizarre that a book can be translated into a different language and still be considered as being the same as the original...This is especially true when you consider English - Chinese translations or vice-versa...I live In TW, but am English and when I ask my Taiwanese friends about translations they tell me that it is impossible to DIRECTLY translate English - Chinese, as the meanings can be misrepresented, etc...Therefore, in this case, it goes to the discretion of the translator as to how to translate something...

 

[ControlArmsNow]

Very good point, Ou. Any translation is bound to be affected by the translator's own culture and, sometimes, opinion. This is true not just geographically, but over time as well (as culture and opinion change). Consider the famous Anglo-Saxon epic "Beowulf", for example; it's been translated countless times over (I think)1200 years or so, from one language to another, then back again, each time being imparted with some of the translator's own version of what was meant.

 

[Ou Be Low hoo]

Consider the famous Anglo-Saxon epic "Beowulf", for example; it's been translated countless times over (I think)1200 years or so, from one language to another, then back again, each time being imparted with some of the translator's own version of what was meant.

Very true...plus, let's not forget the most famous work of fiction of all time - The Bible...

 

[Scratchy]

I loved Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf and was, therefore, surprised when my lecturer crinkled up her nose at the mention of it on the first day of my Old English Beowulf class. In comparison with the other translation I had read, Heaney's translation seemed less abrupt and silly. But in an effort to contemporaise the poem (and to make the reader feel less alienated), Heaney eliminated a lot of elements that were integral of the Anglo Saxon culture. While his version was more accessible, it was also less of the original poem.

After completing the paper, I read part of my translation of Beowulf to my partner and we had a good laugh. It is almost incomprehensible. Okay, it WAS incomprehensible.

 

[Anahorish]

I have also read modern writers like Stephen King in French and English and sometimes it is interesting to read both versions simultaneously to see the differences - sometimes it is quite close and sometimes the translation has been 'lazy'. If you get my meaning.

I've read Stephen King in French and sometimes it's really well translated and at others not so good. I've also read The Horse Whisperer in French and it was fine. I read these in French because I love the books and I love French, and I usually pick up some vocab from them.