Michael Bailey: Palindrome Hannah

[G4G]

Very admirable. No one likes criticism.

Indeed. Makes me kind of curious to have a sniff at it. I'll have to have a look at my new year's financial situation!

 

[Doug Johnson]

I think it is better to jump in and start writing, get your work out there and take some feed back

True, but if you just want some feedback you don't need to go to the expense of self publishing. (There are lots of people here who are more than happy to tell you how much you suck for free ) There are writers groups etc.

Several self published writers have come here and quickly agreed with fairly basic criticism. Great that they listen and learn, but I'm genuinely interested in the thought process. Did they not get input before? Did everyone tell them it was great before? Did they think it was great before?

Michael obviously can't speak for all of them, but I'm interested in what he has to say.

 

[Motokid]

The only sure-fire way to fail is to never start. The only way to "win" is to risk losing.

I think Sirmyk has done a wonderful job with his first book. I've enjoyed it much more than many other books by "more famous" authors.

I think we must remember that Stewart goes about reading a book in a far differnt way than many other people do. He truely and honestly dis-likes many books that millions of other readers love. While a positive review by Stewart will hold a lot of water, a negative review almost means nothing without considering the thoughts of at least a large handful of others too.

My 13 year old is reading PH now too. She's a far more impassioned reader than I am, and has stated that she's really enjoying the story.

Every piece of work a writer/author does is a stepping stone to their next story. I can imagine that given the feedback he's receiced here, and other places will only serve to make Michael a better writer and story teller. He's already better than many others.

 

[mehastings]

I think we must remember that Stewart goes about reading a book in a far differnt way than many other people do. He truely and honestly dis-likes many books that millions of other readers love. While a positive review by Stewart will hold a lot of water, a negative review almost means nothing without considering the thoughts of at least a large handful of others too.

I think that this is an unfair assessment. It is true that Stewart has different reading standards than many people, but that doesn't make his opinion less valid. In fact, the standards he sets make his opinions more valid for me. I personally have a lot of respect for what Stewart has to say about books and authors. We look for a lot of the same things in a novel. Stewart focuses on quality of writing in addition to well developed plot lines, characters and background. His reviews are also well thought out and detailed (something I certainly need to work on) rather than full of empty praise or criticism. Mass appeal doesn't mean a book is worth the paper it is printed on. Nora Roberts is one of the best selling authors in America. Her books are poorly written formulaic romance novels.

Now, this doesn't have a thing to do about my opinions on Palindrome Hannah. I feel that I can comment on Bailey's writing, but not on the book as a whole, as I haven't read much of it. I started it a few months back, lost interest and haven't picked it back up. I read a good portion of the first story and don't find Stewart's assessment to be terribly far off.

I understand that it is very difficult to publish without help. However, I have to wonder if Palindrome Hannah would have had more appeal with publishers if it had benefited from better editing. Rather than paying for professional cover art, I think spending more money on independent editing would be to Bailey's benefit. Problems with grammar and poor execution in general would hopefully have been cleared up this way. I don't know that this would have made a difference with me, as my main problem was that I just couldn't care less about the characters. I found them flat and difficult to love, or even to hate. Either way, I certainly think that Bailey has an active imagination and ideas that hold some appeal within the genre. His writing simply lacks polish, which will improve with experience.

 

[sirmyk]

I wonder if you feel like Palindrome Hannah was the best you were capable of writing at the time, or do you feel like it would've been much better if you'd gotten more feedback and worked harder on revisions?

Palindrome Hannah was the best I was capable of writing at the time. I'm sure if I had given it a sixth or seventh draft, it would have been a much better novel, especially with some feedback/criticism. As a newbie, criticism is rarely available without spending money, or being slammed as an amateur. It took about four years to write PH, and I was young when first starting the project (with no previous writing experience), so yeah, it was the best I was capable of writing at the time. But it was also a learning experience. Do I think it's good? Of course. Could it be better? Yes. Everything written can be improved upon. Some authors go through twenty to thirty drafts and still are unpleased with their work. I am very pleased with how Palindrome Hannah turned out. And I'll never stop hunting for agents / editors to make it better.

I think it is better to jump in and start writing, get your work out there and take some feed back, than to keep it stashed away forever. Many first novels are picked a part ruthlessly but at least they are a start and get the author going.

I heard some people spontaneously combust, or nearly burst. Like that trumpet player whose head exploded.

Several self published writers have come here and quickly agreed with fairly basic criticism. Great that they listen and learn, but I'm genuinely interested in the thought process. Did they not get input before? Did everyone tell them it was great before? Did they think it was great before? Michael obviously can't speak for all of them, but I'm interested in what he has to say.

Most self-published writers that come here pop in for one or two posts simply to promote their work. "My parrents think it's grate..." and other such quotes we have all stumbled across. To answer your question(s), I had about twenty people read my fourth draft (English teachers, relatives, people I didn't even know, etc.) before even considering publishing the novel (let alone self-publishing) or moving on to the fifth draft. It was more of a project that turned into an obsession. I had to finish it. I even purchased self-help books on self-editing, manuscript formatting, story development, insomnia awareness guides, and other useful books. Everything about writing was new to me. Writing time was also a factor. I was working full time (8:00am-5:00pm), going to college full time (6:00pm-11:00pm), and home was an hour drive to work and from school, so my writing time was limited between the hours of 12:00am and 2:00am. These are not excuses, merely bits of information on which to base my newly-developed writing habit.

The only sure-fire way to fail is to never start. The only way to "win" is to risk losing.

Words to live by. I would also add "The only sure-fire way to sleep is to write down the thoughts keeping you awake."

I think Sirmyk has done a wonderful job with his first book. I've enjoyed it much more than many other books by "more famous" authors.

Many thanks.

I think we must remember that Stewart goes about reading a book in a far differnt way than many other people do. He truely and honestly dis-likes many books that millions of other readers love.

...which is why I sought him out (pestered him for a critique).

Every piece of work a writer/author does is a stepping stone to their next story. I can imagine that given the feedback he's receiced here, and other places will only serve to make Michael a better writer and story teller. He's already better than many others.

Yes. I have already started a list of things to work on based on comments here at this forum. Character development, sloppy dialogue, dramatic obsessiveness, et cetera.

...In fact, the standards he [Stewart] sets make his opinions more valid for me. I personally have a lot of respect for what Stewart has to say about books and authors... Stewart focuses on quality of writing in addition to well developed plot lines, characters and background. His reviews are also well thought out and detailed (something I certainly need to work on) rather than full of empty praise or criticism.

Both Stewart and Jay (now gone) are very picky. Picky is good for a newbie writer. Most take criticism as insult, and praise as comfort. Criticism is key for new writers; praise, although it may raise spirit, is not always helpful. I must again give thanks to Stewart for his help (a thousand word critique), whether he thought my book was great for a noob, just alright, or downright shit. Maybe he even puts me up higher than Dan Brown?

Rather than paying for professional cover art, I think spending more money on independent editing would be to Bailey's benefit.

I have a problem with this comment. Here's why. The artwork for Palindrome Hannah took three hours of my current job to pay for. A minimal amount of green for services rendered. The artist (Michael Ian Bateson) worked with me on the design (I inked the dragon and provided ideas; he provided numerous concept images) and we came up with the cover over a period of four months. He also came up with five high-res plates (see www.oxygen-8.com for these plates) in case my book was ever released with interior artwork (think King's Dark Tower series). M.I.B. is more interested in art than money (like myself). The money transferred between us was irrelevant. Paying for independent editing, on the other hand, is not the way to go. Palindrome Hannah was 132,000 words to begin with, and was widdled down to 110,000 after many revisions. The cost of an independent editor for this particular project could range between $1500 and $6000, depending on which scam artist you went with. Sure, there are a few independent editors out there who are useful, but most care about money and money only; they get paid by the word, so the quicker they get through those hundred thousand or so words, the quicker they get paid.

I don't know that this would have made a difference with me, as my main problem was that I just couldn't care less about the characters. I found them flat and difficult to love, or even to hate.

I read a good portion of the first story...

Figuring that you only read part of the first story (about fifty pages of three hundred-something), and that the first story deals with a man about to kill himself, I would hope you were unable to love him or hate him. Maybe if you made it through some of the other stories you could find something worthy of your time. No matter how bad a novel is, I always try to finish it (some of the recent Dean Koontz, for example).

Either way, I certainly think that Bailey has an active imagination and ideas that hold some appeal within the genre.

Thank you. I'm just trying to offer something new to a genre that is growing stale.

 

[sirmyk]

For those interested in more discussion of the book, here's a link to the thread created before the January BOTM.

 

[Stewart]

I think we must remember that Stewart goes about reading a book in a far different way than many other people do.

What? You don't use your eyes? Some people, eh?

I suppose the difference is that I'm not willing to trust the author from the outset and I want them, for it is part of their job, to make me want to believe their stories, to make me trust them as a writer. I've paid good money to read their work and for that money I want to be entertained and, for me to be entertained, I want an imaginative command of English that creates strong, believable characters; leads me into real places that I can feel myself actually standing in; and makes me interested to know what will happen or, if it's more of a mystery, what is going on.

I suppose the real difference is that you are willing to trust the author from the start, no matter how low the standard is.

I must again give thanks to Stewart for his help (a thousand word critique)

1,574 words; my longest review yet.

 

[Motokid]

I think that this is an unfair assessment.

No, it's not. Stewart's standards are far-and-above beyond the normal readers. In keeping with the same basic "horror" category that PH might fit into, Stewart has repeatedly refered to S. King, A. Rice and D. Koontz as "shit writers". Clearly there are millions of readers who would disagree. If you happen to be one of those millions you probably should not put much weight into Stewarts reviews if the reviews are negative.

I never said his reviews were not valid, well thought out, or detailed. I never said he's not extremely good at what he does.

But it's plain and simple that his standards are set very, very high. A good review from him has great weight. A not-so-good review, or ever a bad review for "most average readers" should not hold as much weight simply because he dislikes so much of what millions of others like.

If I think any and all seafood other than lobster tail is crap, and I tell you that the flounder at some local eatery sucks how much weight would you put in my critique? If you also think everything but lobster tail is shit then you'll be happy with my opinion. If, however, you enjoy shrimp, flouder, clams, seabass, oysters, tuna, crabs, octapus, squid.....should you really listen to my opinion? Perhaps it would be best to get other opinions too wouldn't it?

If you like reading King/Rice/Koontz you should probably not put much weight into Stewarts review of PH. To me, that's not unfair. It makes total sense.

 

[Motokid]

I suppose the real difference is that you are willing to trust the author from the start, no matter how low the standard is.

Is that a comment about me and my taste for reading, or a comment about PH and Michael Bailey?

1,574 words; my longest review yet.

Why the extra effort for this book?

 

[Stewart]

Is that a comment about me and my taste for reading, or a comment about PH and Michael Bailey?

It's a supposition - me thinking aloud - about our differences as readers. You seem to point out we're different; I tend to think our reading is similar in most cases. But it's what we take from it that's different.

Why the extra effort for this book?

There were five stories rather than the usual one, all of which, I thought, deserved investigation before exploring their linkage. There was also the notion of a sixth story to think about.

 

[Motokid]

It's a supposition - me thinking aloud - about our differences as readers. You seem to point out we're different; I tend to think our reading is similar in most cases. But it's what we take from it that's different.

Fair enough.

There were five stories rather than the usual one, all of which, I thought, deserved investigation before exploring their linkage. There was also the notion of a sixth story to think about.

And, fair enough.

As always, I enjoy the challenge of Stewart. Happy Sunday.

 

[sirmyk]

It’s a novel with a nice idea and satisfactory construction but it’s ultimately let down by inexperienced storytelling... but I wonder if Palindrome Hannah - without the title character and with neater prose – could have made more of a splash with agents and publishers rather than a bump in the night.

Sometimes complements are hidden within negativity. From Stewart, I will gladly accept the above quotes as complements.

The story of Hannah, it seems, is meant to be a missing piece for discussion rather than conclusion.

Yes.

 

[Doug Johnson]

Thanks for the replies. Interesting.

 

[Doug Johnson]

Mass appeal doesn't mean a book is worth the paper it is printed on.

It doesn't mean it sucks either. Some books that sell well are excellent stories, very well written.

 

[mehastings]

It doesn't mean it sucks either. Some books that sell well are excellent stories, very well written.

Very true. I've read quite a few best sellers and loved them.

 

[Motokid]

In the last story was Ray

Spoiler

buried under tons of dirt

or simply

Spoiler

locked in the casket inside the mortuary?

My guess is the second. Not sure the kids could have pulled off the first one.

 

[sirmyk]

In the last story was Ray

Spoiler

buried under tons of dirt

or simply

Spoiler

locked in the casket inside the mortuary?

My guess is the second. Not sure the kids could have pulled off the first one.

Your guess is correct. Both would be terrifying the same.

 

[Stewart]

In the last story was Ray

Spoiler

buried under tons of dirt

or simply

Spoiler

locked in the casket inside the mortuary?

My guess is the second.

It tells you in Reflections, if I remember correctly.

 

[sirmyk]

It tells you in Reflections, if I remember correctly.

Yes. Reflections tells you much about the ending.

 

[Motokid]

Yes. Reflections tells you much about the ending.

Ahh yes...that's the problem with spreading the reading out over multple weeks...I found the answer...

My daughter just finished the book last night...I'll see if I can get her to write up a review from the 13 year old perspective.