Natsuo Kirino: Out

[Dogmatix]

Satake is a sick bastard, that's for certain. I thought it was interesting that Satake thought of the murder as an act of love, a pure act. He repeatedly says that the victim is the only woman for him, somehow perfect and that he can't ever be with anyone else. At least until he falls for Masako near the end.

This book is certainly dark but there are some redeeming messages present and I agree with "nomadicmyth" there is quite a bit of humor as well.

I really enjoyed the development of the relationship between the women, how is shifted and matured as the plot developed.

 

[grit]

I thought the parallels between the life/work scenarios of the women and the nature of the crime were fascinating--they are all uniquely suited to the act in ways they could not have imagined.

They work off-schedule in a factory requiring regimented tasks in which they need to be efficient. At home they need to perform ritual duties as well. Boredom and distaste seem to be the underlying current of their daily activities. There is no emotional reward in either sphere, and while they are paid slightly more for the graveyard shift, monetary issues plague them.

The murder and dismemberment are oddly similar, it requires the same skill and focused detachment. The portions are boxed and distributed, just like the lunches.

They live a life of subsistence level imprisonment--financially, emotionally and socially. Through these gruesome chores they are compensated and empowered in a way that their normal life could never provide and the social structure would never allow.

I enjoyed the small scenes in which the characters eat the box lunches--it seemed to represent some bizarre continuum. Also when Masako goes shopping and draws the same conclusion. The writing was very convincing in its visual and olfactory descriptions.

I was perplexed by the characterization of the men--so aloof, so ineffectual. At first I thought the author was developing the roles of Jumonji and Kasua as somehow different then the older men, but the recollections of the women indicate that the men in their lives had had some passion at some point. Then it occurred to me that the younger men had yet to go through the same depersonalization process, the same routine that put Yoshiko in his room and Kenji in the club.

So, while I grasp the feminist tone of the book it also seems to be revealing the overall destructive nature of this misogynistic society. The men don't seem to fare any better under this system.

 

[Dogmatix]

I enjoyed the small scenes in which the characters eat the box lunches--it seemed to represent some bizarre continuum.

Good observation. I like those little descriptions as well.

Regarding the unhappiness or disatisfaction the men felt with their lives. I hadn't thought of that but of course you are absoluetly right. There really wasn't a happy character in this book.

What did everyone think about the ending?

 

[Netherbard]

This novel may not be a book to be enjoyed but witnessed with journalistic eye. The story shed too much light on maladies of the present Japan to be categorized as mere entertainment. It was indeed a very disturbing book. And to be honest, I found myself disturbingly enjoying it.

While some parts are fictional exaggerations, the underside of Japanese society depicted in this fiction is stark reality I suppose. There is severe distinction between rich and poor, and the poor turn to crime out of poverty, the rich corrupt because of wealth. Spineless adults, kids without moral sense, family ties are becoming invisible. It's a class-conscious nation, there's no way out for the weak in this hierarchical society. Perhaps Masako was a picaresque heroine in some aspects.

The author Kirino told in an interview that in this novel she wanted to write about people who gain freedom by going off the rails. Provoking many controversial issues, she succeeded in what she attempted, making it highly readable and quite thought-provoking at the same time.

P.S. I watched the film adaptation of this novel right after I read it and thought the director a complete idiot. The story was drastically changed and a great deal of crucial scenes was omitted. The dark dangerous tone of it was replaced by that of clumsy comedy. He turned it into a flippant female bonding drama in the worst possible way.

 

[Dogmatix]

Netherband: Thanks for that insight. I really had very little knowledge about Japanese socio-economic class issues; which I now take to be fairly stringent and somewhat oppressive. This book was very eye opening as well as darkly entertaining.

 

[xBasx]

according to your comments, this book has definitely been put in the list of books I wanna read. =)

I just want to ask who can I know about the upcomming months books??

 

[Dogmatix]

There is a sub forum called Book of the Month. In it we vote on a book every month and then discuss them

 

[xBasx]

thanks. I kinda noticed that a while ago. =]

 

[steffee]

It was indeed a very disturbing book. And to be honest, I found myself disturbingly enjoying it.

Well I can't wait.

I finally bought this yesterday, actually. For some reason I hovered by the crime section (something I never do) in Waterstones and there it was, in the centre of a table with all these other "great crime reads", which made me remember it.

So do continue with this great discussion.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

I'm glad that this book was chosen for BOTM otherwise I never would have picked it up, an act (or non-act) that would have resulted in my passing over of a fantastic read. I had some reservations in beginning it as I'm not a fan of crime fiction, but after reading the blurb on the back and being aware the fantaistic thrillers that have come out of Japan, I decided to give it a try - and I'm extremely glad I did.

The pace was just right, the situation almost believable, and the characters easy to relate to. There were a few things that I found ruined the flow of the novel a bit - such as the sudden and dramatic change in Kuniko after the killing and the other women's change in attitude to her; I just didn't find this believable at all, especially since they had been part of the tight "work team" for a time before the murder - but overall it was outstanding.

Is it just me or did you keep thinking that the girls were going to chop of the bodies and put them into some processed aspect of the boxed lunches? Particularly since there were many scenes in which they talked about buckets of scraps at the factory?

This is exactly what I thought as well, especially with Kenji. I assumed that that was the original plan, and thought that this is what Masako and Yoshie were talking about when they were discussing how to get rid of Kenji

 

[Dogmatix]

Kenji burgers anyone?

 

[StillILearn]

I'm feeling encouraged, MC. The book just moved up a notch in my TBR pile. It had begun looking more and more ominous to me -- looming and leering, almost. I had begun to shove things in front of it.

 

[steffee]

Read it next Still.

I agree with the comments so far about the rich/poor divide. While reading, I found myself warming to the four main female characters, but after finishing I can find lots of faults: Masako, while an assertive character, with a good head on her shoulders, was just too fickle at the end. Kuniko was just a common whore - I don't get how people can say they identified with her to be honest; Yayoi seemed unecessarily heartless, and too weak to have done what she did.

Yoshie, though, was the best depicted character, I thought. Kirino portrayed her life, caring for her two children, grandchild and frail mother-in-law perfectly, especially with her desperation for money to survive. I felt heartly sorry for her several times throughout the story, such as when her daughter dumped her baby son on her hands, and then when she (or someone else) stole her money. She was the only one who didn't seem to be focussed on greed of the four of them.

I wondered throughout, what the purpose of Anna was. And I expected Satake to kill her, actually. But he didn't, so I'm left with the feeling what maybe her only role was to illustrate that beauty isn't really enough to satisfy a man - at least in Satake's case.

The male characters did seem to be rather weak, but I warmed a great deal to Kazuo, and wondered why he didn't just go back to Brazil with Masako's money. Satake was just pure evil, but the ending, when Masako stabbed him in the cheek, and he was grateful, happy to die, was a little overdone, I thought. Jumonji (sp.) seemed a good all-round guy, but for someone with so many links to shady characters, he did seem a bit of a wimp when it came down to his trouble with Satake.

I, too, thought maybe Kenji's body was going to be put into the lunches... I was surprised that I didn't feel more sympathy towards Kenji too.

The "jobs", both the night-shift at the factory, and the cutting up and disposing of the bodies, were well-written, I thought. They were interesting enough to make me keep reading, yet gory enough to make me wonder why. But I agree with MC about the pace, it was just right. I'm glad I read it, and like MC and others, if it wasn't a BotM, probably never would have picked it up.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

I'm feeling encouraged, MC. The book just moved up a notch in my TBR pile. It had begun looking more and more ominous to me -- looming and leering, almost. I had begun to shove things in front of it.

That's great SIL - I'm not going to deny that there are some very graphic scenes in the book, both sex and violence (and even a combination of the two), but they are few and necessary to the plot - they aren't just thrown in there for shock value. You might say that they have been "tastefully" inserted. Like steffee, I think that you should move it to the top

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

While reading, I found myself warming to the four main female characters, but after finishing I can find lots of faults: Masako, while an assertive character, with a good head on her shoulders, was just too fickle at the end. Kuniko was just a common whore - I don't get how people can say they identified with her to be honest; Yayoi seemed unecessarily heartless, and too weak to have done what she did.

These almost unbelivable changes in the personalities of the characters is something that I was constantly questioning also, especially the changes in Kuniko. At the beginning of the novel she seemed to be liked by all in the group, perhaps a bit lavish and fickle, but no one had objections to her - Masako even had an agreement to meet her everyday before work - and she didn't seem to be overly unlikable herself. Fast forward to after the murder, and she becomes coniving, annoying and detested by all of the group even before she has done anything to deserve it - detested by Maskao especially. It's just something that I never got - the complete change of the submissive Kuniko into the controlling, greedy and hated woman she is at the end of the novel.
As steffee pointed out, there are also other dramatic (almost too-dramatic) changes in the four leading ladies throughout the novel. I agree with steffee in that Yayoi seemes unnecessarily heartless by the end of the novel - the complete change in her (inside and outside) also seems unbelievable. Would an even such as the murder and consequent situations really change people in this way? To this extent? Did anyone else find these changes a little extreme?

 

[Dogmatix]

Would an even such as the murder and consequent situations really change people in this way? To this extent? Did anyone else find these changes a little extreme?

I hear what you and steffee are saying and I do agree that the changes were extreme, but felt they were justified in the story. My thinking is that they were already living on the edge of desperation, eekeing out a pretty miserable existance. Add to that misery the strain of the murder and then the windfall of cash and it's associated greed. I think it was all this combined that changed them so completely. Perhaps in less desperate circumstances they wouldn't have changed so much? Just my two cents.

 

[steffee]

My thinking is that they were already living on the edge of desperation, eekeing out a pretty miserable existance. Add to that misery the strain of the murder and then the windfall of cash and it's associated greed. I think it was all this combined that changed them so completely. Perhaps in less desperate circumstances they wouldn't have changed so much? Just my two cents.

Maybe, but Yoshie didn't even get any money at the end, because Satake had taken it from her, and she was still a weak, pathetic character. Masako didn't even need the money, and at first she didn't know why she had agreed to the job herself, because initially she wasn't standing to gain anything. Kuniko had always had money problems, so her change in attitude should have occured throughout (and before) the story, whenever she had gotten a new loan.

As far as I can see, Yoshie was the only one who truly desperately needed the money (other than Kuniko for her debts, but she'd have found a way most likely) yet she (Yoshie) remained fairly likable.

As for the murder and cutting up the bodies - if they had detested it so much, would they really have did it again? Especially in Masako and Kuniko's cases, where they didn't even need the money then?

Loved the Lolita references - had forgotten about that.

 

[Dogmatix]

Hmmm... perhaps. I was thinking more about the circumstances of their lives, a couple of crappy husbands, sickly and hateful mother inlaw, ungrateful children, terrible job. Also it seems that there is, at least for these women, little room for growth and advancement in this highly regimented and class driven society. Maybe they weren't exactly destitute but I think they all were, in their own ways, desperate. I think many people see money, lots of it, as a problem solver. "If only I could win the lottery all my troubles would go away. I'd pay off my bills, buy a yatch and sail right out of my crappy life". Of course that isn't true. Our troubles follow us wherever we go and money can't buy happiness, but nevertheless. I guess in my opinion I saw the women's desperation, lead quickly to greed, mistrust, and finally downright ugly behavior. I agree the behaviors were extreme but I found them believable.

Yeah, I also forgot about the Lolita reference

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

As for the murder and cutting up the bodies - if they had detested it so much, would they really have did it again? Especially in Masako and Kuniko's cases, where they didn't even need the money then?

Only Masako and Yoshie cut up the bodies again, if you recall. I see what you are saying here, though - Yoshie had a reason for doing it again but Masako? She had already received a huge payout from the first, so I don't think that money would having been the driving force behind her decision to agree to the business proposition, and doing it as a way to break her monotonous life doesn't quite ring true either - that also seemed a bit extreme. But then again, Masako did turn into quite a dark, controlling person by the end.

I guess in my opinion I saw the women's desperation, lead quickly to greed, mistrust, and finally downright ugly behavior.

I agree that they were all desperate at the start, and yet after Kenji's body had been disposed of, most had no real need to be desperate anymore. Yayoi had gotten rid of her abusive, neglectful husband; Kuniko had received enough money to pay of her bills; Masako had had a break from her tedious existance - Yoshie was really the only one who still had a reason to be desperate, and yet as steffee pointed out, she was the one that changed the least.

 

[Dogmatix]

Good discussion guys.