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nietzsche

bobbyburns said:
so far we have nothing but images.

when you look down from the top of a mountain there is you who are looking at the city below; there are tiny insect humans driving cars around buildings that look like toy models, and there is you, the observer, the thinker, you, the center. what goes on down there is irrelevant when you're up here. you are creating psychological space between yourself and all the complex problems down below. but there is also you observing yourself, the you that is connected to everything around it. it sees you struggle with the thousands of problems you've created, which are in fact one problem: the self. the self is the you you know and the me I know. it's like having crawled into a narrow hole when there was an expansive field above us. we become lonely, yet we sometimes feel secure because in our tiny subterranean abodes we have books and paintings and radios and other temporary means of escape. to see this and understand this requires a great deal of capacity and awareness, but it also means turning your back on everything you have built up. your country, your name, your religion, your ideas, everything.
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"so far we have nothing but images." ---YEs. *nodding head* the statement, "we are our choice", is not only about choices. It is more about the images that one has projectd in the mind when he/she has been pondering on which solution is better in the case of their own.

"it's like having crawled into a narrow hole when there was an expansive field above us. "
----This triggers me to think that more often than not it is only our mind make tricks on ourself. Breaking through the limitations is essential to us, well to me, at least, if I want to gain freedom in that expansive field above or beyond me/us..

"we become lonely, yet we sometimes feel secure because in our tiny subterranean"

never more accurate! I cannot find a more accurate way in expressing the idea like you do. Believe me, I understand it!

The other day, I was thinking that since no one can understand one another thoroughly, so every on is doomed to be alone, just as what has been displayed in one hundred years of solitude.


Thank you!! :) Bobbyburns.
 
"I'm trying to understand myself as well, so we can explore this together as friends."

It is only because you have said that we can explore this together as friends which gives me the courage to talk about what I am thinking. And it really helps me to learn more. :)
 
that's good, a glimpse of understanding is all it takes at first. even I sometimes stray from everything you read ... I'll get caught up something really dumb like a video game or a relationship. I mean, they're fun for a while, but it's impossible to derive any satisfaction from them. the feeling comes and goes.
 
bobbyburns said:
it also means turning your back on everything you have built up. your country, your name, your religion, your ideas, everything.
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When you turn your back on everything, what are you left with? Nothing?

You claim you should be able not to rely on anybody, and simultaneously you say you got help from your friends, without them you wouldn't have got to the point you 're in. I wonder why do you call these helpful people friends, if you state that relationship is fun for a while, but with no intention of it lasting longer. This is not friendship.
 
bobbyburns said:
what I'm asking you is whether it is possible to end violence in yourself while still living in this monstrously brutal world.
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I'm an optimist. I suppose yes, it's possible. For obvious examples, Mother Theresa, Albert Schweitzer, Gandhi.
I don't want to have any conflict in me, any hate, jealousy, fear or anxiety.
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this is rather impossible. Such emotions, like fear, or anxiety, are depednded on amygdala (I hope I wrote this rightly) - a part of brain which is not controlled by our free will. You can't get rid of them. As long as your brain works.
 
no, you are still left with everything. the world is still there. you cease to separate yourself from it through religion, culture, ideas and other projections of the self. this is another instance where words become an obstacle when trying to translate something internal.

secondly, someone had to tell me I was conditioned. someone had to tell me I can't rely on anyone. (the thing about conditioning is it conditions you.) rejecting authority doesn't mean you can't help other people. it's the intention that's important. and like I said, I get caught up in stuff sometimes for selfish reasons just like everyone else. once I let go of it I don't stop caring. it feels like it's the other way around and I only really care when I'm not clinging to other people, otherwise I'm only looking to them to make me feel more secure with myself. and that's definitely not friendship.
 
Idun said:
this is rather impossible. Such emotions, like fear, or anxiety, are depednded on amygdala (I hope I wrote this rightly) - a part of brain which is not controlled by our free will. You can't get rid of them. As long as your brain works.
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I'm not talking about the brain. it doesn't create any conflict, it's an organ like every other one in our bodies. the brain is capable of complete and conscious silence, but the mind is not. the mind is pure thought.
 
I think we're moving away from discussing Nietsche philosophy.;)
There is not such a thing like pure thought. Your thinking is always altered - or maybe a better word for it is biased - by your emotions (from which you can't hide, as they are genetically conditioned, hormones work and so on). Even your assesment of a meritorhical quality of what someone other says depends on whether you like him, or not, which is an unaware process. Therefore, brain can create conflict, if it triggers an emotion you would like not to feel.
Religion, culture, ideas don't separate man from the world. They are the world; and they are the man. Socialisation is necessary to became a separate individual, to create your own personality and identity. You can't gain authonomy if you won't get through a stage of being taught by others. In this process, religion, culture, ideas become part of your identity, and even if you negate them later on, something stays, because it became a part of your self.
 
I hate to keep doing this to you, but it's 6:45 in the morning and I'm gonna end up sleeping all day if I don't crash now.

I'll get back to you soon.
 
I thought Nietzsche was great when I was 18/19. I read his books obsessively. My favourites were Human, All Too Human and Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

I think he's brilliant but dangerous. And he was insane.
 
Severian said:
I think he's brilliant but dangerous. And he was insane.
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I agree with you that his works are dangerous, but why do you think he was insane? Because he invented such ideas, or do you know something from his private life which proves his insanity?
 
he had syphilis and he broke down towards the end of his life. I think he was a mad tortured genius and I love him like a father.
 
Syphilis is not something to be proud of, but it's not a sign of insanity, is it?
 
I don't know if it is proven that he had syphilis but that's what I've read and he definitely suffered a complete mental breakdown. I think he visited a brothel as a student and that's where he might have got it.

you don't want to see what syphilis can do to your face. :eek:
 
bobbyburns said:
and I really care when I'm not clinging to other people, otherwise I'm only looking to them to make me feel more secure with myself. and that's definitely not friendship.
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had misunderstood what bobbyburns had said here.
 
Idun said:
I think we're moving away from discussing Nietsche philosophy.;)
There is not such a thing like pure thought. Your thinking is always altered - or maybe a better word for it is biased - by your emotions (from which you can't hide, as they are genetically conditioned, hormones work and so on). Even your assesment of a meritorhical quality of what someone other says depends on whether you like him, or not, which is an unaware process. Therefore, brain can create conflict, if it triggers an emotion you would like not to feel.
Religion, culture, ideas don't separate man from the world. They are the world; and they are the man. Socialisation is necessary to became a separate individual, to create your own personality and identity. You can't gain authonomy if you won't get through a stage of being taught by others. In this process, religion, culture, ideas become part of your identity, and even if you negate them later on, something stays, because it became a part of your self.
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---"I think we're moving away from discussing Nietsche philosophy.;)"

---Yes, seemed we did move away from Nietzsche, maybe it doesn't matter so much since philosophy is about life, and thinkings of our own life, :) personal opinion.

---"Socialisation is necessary to became a separate individual, to create your own personality and identity. You can't gain authonomy if you won't get through a stage of being taught by others. In this process, religion, culture, ideas become part of your identity, and even if you negate them later on, something stays, because it became a part of your self."

---Yes and no. when we want to know something about ourselves, we resort to these labels to be "identified", to "emerge" from the whole others, this perhaps is the process of separating, I think. separation from others leads to distant from others, to detachement, to competition, to conflict, to violence even, well, maybe not necessarily. (seemed somewhere bobbyburns mentioned about violence. ) and this could be my interpretation of how violence transpired. ---HONESTLY, i am not very clear of my thinking here, :eek: so, sorry about any potential misunderstanding.
 
idun, if I follow moral rules I have separated myself from my environment. like I said, the mind creates that space so it can know in advance how to react to a situation. if I'm a christian I say to myself, "I can't hit someone; I must turn the other cheek instead". but I'm still violent, that is the reality. yet I reject it in virtue of the fact that the bible says it is wrong to be violent. so the morals just create more and more friction because they are always planning ahead, they keep me from dealing with my problems immediately. I can never observe the present moment clearly, so the conflict never goes away.
 
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