please help

[ions]

During the past year I've seen nothing that has changed the way in which some members reply to new posters who do not use the search function, or those who choose to use forms of shorthand (l33t, text message, etc). I find such remarks unwelcoming to new posters, but have come to accept it as the nature of some individuals.

And I'm not gonna change. The response is appropriate to the initial post.

I would say, however, that those of you who are wanting more breadth to the forum should be encouraging of all new posters. These foibles are not always indicative of people's intellect.

Not always, but mostly. In fact so mostly that it's completely worth the risk. Intelligent well mannered people are more likely to communicate in an intelligent and pleasent manner.

Should you wish to make a comment with someone's initial post, for example that they are not expressing themselves in an appropriate way, say so clearly so that they understand. There is no use in breaking a thread off into a diabtribe full of sarcasm or snippy remarks because it does nothing to address the problem in the first place.

Way too much time and effort. Why should I bother when there was no effort made by them? Not gonna happen. Straight and to the point, smarten up or get out.

We should not need a mod to wander in here and feel that this thread needs closing because of this argument. If the manner in which some posters address comments like this bugs you, then add another post and clarify to the newbie why that post has been made. Make the newbie feel welcome and help them out. It's hard starting out in a new forum and knowing all the rules immediately, and many people have become used to the rules of other forums, where text message speak may be the norm.

Peace out.

Yeah knock yourself out. It will be a thankless job in both literal thank yous and posters that you save from lazy unintelligent posting. I find helping those that help themselves much more rewarding to both myself and to them.

 

[ions]

Thank you for that post, Kook - you talk a lot of sense.

You make a good point in your second paragraph, when you say that other forums might allow text message speak, leading newbies to assume that was the case here. As you say, all that needs to be done is for someone to point out (in a polite and friendly fashion) that we don't write like that here. Most people would respond positively to that, I think.

Hate to post again right away but I had to say I don't think this is a good point. If someone honestly thinks they can post 1337 speak on a book forum they've had a serious lack of judgement or just not bright at all. It's a book forum for crying out loud!!

 

[abecedarian]

As a reformed newbie who still has much to learn( thank God for the edit button), I have to say I've received a few well deserved pointed remarks as I learned my way around here. I suppose I could have reacted in a defensive manner and either gotten nasty or left altogether. I know personally of one member who just left..I decided the majority of the posters with pointy comments were not out to 'get me' personally, but were just trying to point me in the right direction.

 

[ions]

I took my hiatus from here earlier this year for two reasons. The first was the silly locking of two major threads in General Discussion. I still miss them but I'm over it. The second reason was there were too many people posting poorly. Just dumb shit, terrible topics, obvious lack of searching, or it was somebody being lazy with no appreciation for the written word at all trying to take advantage of those that do. This on its own isn't a huge problem, the problem is the bleeding hearts coming along and calling me an asshole when I chastise someone appropriately! I even got warned by moderation. I know from experience that these bad posters do not enrich forums. They almost never ever ever learn or say thank you. Let them do it and they'll abuse it. Is this a discussion forum or an answering service? Allow these guys to you'll piss off the dedicated intelligent members so that they'll leave.

I have moderated many times before in automotive and IT forums. Some things are covered over and over and over again. I used to pay a lot of attention to the first posts of people who had obviously not searched. I would search for them and post a few of the good threads. That got to be too much work too often. Then I'd also get PMs from these lazy jerks, easier than a whole new post right? Then I just started posting the link to the search results and locking the threads. I figured at least the searches would include these so others could use the info. The search results started getting clogged with these locked threads. Now I just delete the crap. Search results are better for those that make the effort and intelligent members have less cruft to wade through.

 

[Poppy1]

Ions, I stand by what I said earlier but please do not think I was targetting you in particular - it was a generalised observation.

 

[Kookamoor]

ions, I don't want to have an argument here, but given that you've said your piece, let me tell you how way I feel about your occasional behaviour. I think you're a valuable member of the forum and enjoy most of your posts, but I don't like cleaning up the mess you leave behind with your occasionally caustic comments.

This on its own isn't a huge problem, the problem is the bleeding hearts coming along and calling me an asshole when I chastise someone appropriately!

If by "bleeding hearts" you mean people who care about the feelings of others, then I will stand up and declare that I am. However I have never called you an 'asshole' or anything of the sort. I simply don't think that your 'chastising' is appropriate. Firstly, you don't chastise, but rather make fun of someone, post a sarcastic comment or put them down. That's humiliation, not chastisement. Secondly, there's a difference between pointing out someone's error and chastising them. The former is polite and helpful, the latter is when you're in a position of authority and someone is in error. There is a difference between error and lack of knowledge. Before you bite, first teach someone the correct/preferred method of doing something.

I know from experience that these bad posters do not enrich forums... Allow these guys to you'll piss off the dedicated intelligent members so that they'll leave.

Equally, your caustic mannerisms piss me off, and make the forum a less-then friendly place to my way of thinking. In the past the behaviour towards newbies by a few forum members has made me leave TBF for a while. I'm not suggesting that we tolerate poor behaviour or excessive spam, but there is a difference between politely suggesting a change in behavior and allowing somone to run roughshod over the forum.

Furthermore, one of my favourite forum members and I started corresponding when I wrote a PM to him after he was given a particularly harsh welcome. He is a highly intelligent and strongly contributing member of this forum now. Be careful not to confuse inexperience with a "bad poster".

I have moderated many times before in automotive and IT forums. Some things are covered over and over and over again. I used to pay a lot of attention to the first posts of people who had obviously not searched. I would search for them and post a few of the good threads. That got to be too much work too often. Then I'd also get PMs from these lazy jerks, easier than a whole new post right? Then I just started posting the link to the search results and locking the threads. I figured at least the searches would include these so others could use the info. The search results started getting clogged with these locked threads. Now I just delete the crap. Search results are better for those that make the effort and intelligent members have less cruft to wade through.

So... because you have had this experience everyone else has to put up with your short temper for silly questions? That's not only foolish, but selfish to boot. In many cases where I have viewed your post you have quite clearly had time to read their post, hit the reply button, write a snippy note and press send. Why not type something constructive next time, or if it's too time consuming dealing with these people then ignore them. If someone posts a silly question and no one replies, the problem solves itself, because the poster generally realises that no one has any interest in their query.

In short, I see no need for rudeness towards any poster, particularly someone who is new to the forum. We can all keep a civil tongue in our heads most of the time. I should state that while this comment is directed towards ions due to the nature of his comments it does not apply just to him.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

Oooo patronizing, that’s a big word for a little lady.

Very clever - stay up all night thinking of that one?

However these posts tend to be reserved for responding to threads where such a tone has already been used by others

And that makes it less patronizing and disrespectful, how?

You won’t find examples of me making new members unwelcome or making sweeping statements

Firstly, the statement I made about the title of the thread is completely true. This was not directed at the member in question at all, I was merely explaining to someone why some people dismissed the member straight away. Secondly, I was not trying to make the new member feel unwelcome, but merely letting my feelings be known - you may notice that the reply was not directed towards the new member in any way. They are perfectly welcome as long as they respect the people on the forum by making an attempt to sort out their language use. And thirdly, you may notice that the first post that I made on the thread was this:

To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee and A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess are both compelling, short reads

I was not rude nor unwelcoming to them, but offered advice when asked.

Personally I’d say they were quite patronizing, and a tad judgemental too.

You are free to feel how you like about them. The only reason I brought up the fact that your posts are often patronizing and disrespectful is because you were trying to lecture someone else on how to behave on the forums, something which I didn't do. Perhaps they were patronizing and judgemental - I don't believe that they were, for reasons already stated - but I never tried to suggest that my behaviour on the forums was a model example of how everyone should behave.

Agreeing to disagree,
MC

 

[Kenny Shovel]

MC: Thank you for jotting down some more of your thoughts on this potentially award winning thread. As you’ve posed a couple of questions, I’ll quickly respond to them before giving you the chance to have the final say if you so wish. As I suspect prolonged correspondence on this matter will fail to achieve agreement, I’ll leave the thread for now.

Very clever - stay up all night thinking of that one?

This is an interesting start to a post were you later deny being patronizing. However, it is a brave attempt at a witty comeback; so for that, Touché.

However these posts tend to be reserved for responding to threads where such a tone has already been used by others

And that makes it less patronizing and disrespectful, how?

It doesn’t, they are the same, which was the point I was trying to make. To clarify: If people are being pompous, patronizing and disrespectful to others, particularly new members, then they can’t really complain if the same thing happens to them. That’s probably not the most constructive way of going about things but then neither is referring to answering questions as “mollycoddling idiots”.
As members, if we see posts that we have some objection too, we are free to say so as long as the mods do not think we are stepping over the line. Someone can make a comment, I can respond to it, and you in turn and express your opinion on my contribution. I have no complaints about your opinions on my posting style, you are free to do so, and indeed I would encourage you.

…you may notice that the first post that I made on the thread was this:

To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee and A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess are both compelling, short reads

I was not rude nor unwelcoming to them, but offered advice when asked.

I did indeed notice your first post; you made two very good suggestions. It was only later that you decided that “’Please Help' is the generalized title for any ignorant kid…”. Given this is the thread title, I’m not quite sure how you can claim that “the reply was not directed towards the new member in any way “.

The only reason I brought up the fact that your posts are often patronizing and disrespectful is because you were trying to lecture someone else on how to behave on the forums, something which I didn't do.

Nice to see you are now trying to make up for lost time.

As I stated above, I sometimes respond to what I consider examples of bad forum etiquette, you appear to be doing exactly the same with me. Fair enough.

Agreeing to disagree,
MC

Indeed,

K-S

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

KS: I understand that you are intending to stay away from this thread, but I'd just like to clear a few things up just incase you do pop in here sometime in the future.

That’s probably not the most constructive way of going about things but then neither is referring to answering questions as “mollycoddling idiots”.

Answering the member's question was not what I was refering to - I answered the question myself, remember? I was speaking in generalized terms here, mainly about instances in school where idiots are mollycoddled and those who achieve well are ignored.

I did indeed notice your first post; you made two very good suggestions. It was only later that you decided that “’Please Help' is the generalized title for any ignorant kid…”. Given this is the thread title, I’m not quite sure how you can claim that “the reply was not directed towards the new member in any way “.

What I meant was that the post was not written as a stab at the new member, that it was not written in reply to her post (or "not directed towards her" - badly worded, I know), but as I have already explained, as an explination to another member as to why people were getting a little fed up with people like the new member.

Also leaving this thread as I see we cannot agree,
MC

 

[Occlith]

déjà vu

Keep it simple folks, If you don't like requests for possible homework help, do not post a reply

OR

Just post this link
http://forums.thebookforum.com/showthread.php?t=8979

that's what it was made for

 

[Poppy1]

déjà vu

Keep it simple folks, If you don't like requests for possible homework help, do not post a reply

OR

Just post this link
http://forums.thebookforum.com/showthread.php?t=8979

that's what it was made for

You have to have a giggle don't you Occlith, never has a simple question lead to such a furore. The poor boy has probably long since left, never to return.

 

[Occlith]

You have to have a giggle don't you Occlith

​

never has a simple question lead to such a furore

I have to disagree with that. Never say never about TBF ​

 

[ions]

Who posted that thread you refer to Occlith? And why?

Certainly wasn't a stab at attempting to help those who help themselves and expose those who don't give a

 

[ions]

I forgot to put a or a in that post last night.