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Litany said:
A book is just as much an escape as tv, or shopping, and I tend to agree with Bobby, if your life really is full then you wouldn't need to escape into someone else's. Maybe you then call your life with books a full one, but what's the shame in admitting you needed something more?

there's no shame, none whatsoever. it's just a matter of observing yourself, your desires. we all get high on good feelings ... cigarettes, religion, books, hand jobs, t.v., comfort, acceptance, status, you name it. we're dependent on some form of pleasure, it's mechanical. most people see no reason to change, their mind stays in one spot, they use just one part of their brain, and so the rest becomes dull or dies. you get set in your ways. this is why most elderly people can't ingest anything new. the brain constantly sends signals along neural paths, and overtime it wires itself a certain way, like a program in a computer. that conditioning then determines every choice they make. that goes for you and me too. so the trick is really to try and change it while you're not yet set in a pattern, because then it becomes very difficult.
 
Litany said:
Bobby can't call a life empty without being judgemental, but you can call the majority of the population naive lemmings? :rolleyes:


Unconcerned parents might be raising brainless little brats but it is not the media's responsibility to educate. They're not your parents. They're not the government. They give the people what they want. And it's not like this is some bodyless entity floating around in the ether. It's run and populated by people. You can't blame tv, consumerism, celebrities and marketing, without pointing the finger at yourself.

Yes, EXACTLY. I blame people. There is no entity. The reason the world is the way it is, because of the people that make up the majority.


I think it becomes very easy to separate yourself from the great unwashed masses and explain away all the problems with society as being the fault of the great media and marketing bogeyman, but why not try taking the time to get to know some of these people? And I don't mean the little gangs of bored teenaged boys on street corners who have nothing better to do than burn things. I mean these uneducated sheep who sweep your roads, empty your bins, clean your office and basically keep your life running smoothly. And once you've gotten to know some of them, try taking on board the concept that to someone else out there you are one of the great unwashed masses. You are one of these brainless little zombies conforming to society. Someone out there is making just as many judgements on you based on just as little knowledge.

I find your comments to be condesending and offensive! My mother was a cleaning lady. I myself only work in a warehouse. I didn't go to university like you did. I'm so glad that you think one of us little people might have something in us that makes us worth talking to. I mean, listen to yourself. Same example that you used before: "oh yes, some of those blacks are quite smart when you get talking with them." I mean, PLEASE!!!

There are as many incredibly witty, bright, imaginative people in the social groups being described with derision as there are in the so-called intelligent classes. Substitute a few words and we'd have some really racist rants in this thread. :rolleyes:

Yes, there are, and we are not talking about those people. We are talking in general. We can all live in a in a nice fantasy disney world where everybody has a good trait about them. Everybody has a spark of kindness in them. im sorry but i refuse to by into this PC BS. People are not all nice and worth knowing. The mass of people are ignorant mindless drones. The mass of peole are stupid, mean spirited and souless. Just LOOK around you!

This is NOT about class. this is not about money. This is not about social posistion or even if you are one of the intellectual elite. This is certainly not about being a judge of any person. Nobody on this planet is better than another. I am not saying im special. I am not saying im smart. I am not saying that I am better than another person, because I am NOT! I don't think I or anybody that has agreed with me is saying this.

What I am saying is very simple: My statement was that most people are drones that simply conform and do what everybody else does. OK, NOT EVERYBODY IS, im not saying that. I am simply stating that they have no desire to expand their lives. They are happy to simply exist rather than LIFE. It has nothing to do with being better than another person or being a judge of them. This is a true statement. You only have to look at tv and the world about you to confirm it.

Phew, end of rant :)
 
Wow, I can't believe the stats in that study! But I guess it makes sense.

Like many others have said in this thread already, I don't know too many people who will take the time to read a book. My ex-boyfriend wasn't really into readingl, but I finally did get him to give it a try. Unfortunately, he later read one boring book and got so turned off by the experience that he hasn't picked up another one since! :confused: What's wrong with people today?

My new boyfriend is an avid reader and we get along much better! ;)
 
Litany said:
Unconcerned parents might be raising brainless little brats but it is not the media's responsibility to educate. They're not your parents. They're not the government. They give the people what they want. And it's not like this is some bodyless entity floating around in the ether. It's run and populated by people.

That's just the thing - for many children, tv is the only parent, and it's just as prominent in the lives of adults too, but what kind of influence is it?

I don't know about you, but with the exception of the simpsons and royal family which both cast tv in a bad light, i've never watched a show were people sit watching tv. Nor have i heard people say, "why don't you go and do something worthwhile, like watch tv?"

Nor can we ignore the recent trend towards shallow, negative and greed driven programming. Weakest link thrives on cruelty, big brother glorifies celebrity, pop idol awards vanity with fame and fortune to the winner and (more tellingly) crushing abuse to the losers, what not to wear is nothing but bitchiness, and that's before the countless number of money obsessed property shows in which people buy happiness.

When once tv was used to entertain and inform, it has now for the sake of greater profits lodged itself deep in our worst flaws. This wouldnt be so bad if it was not so addictive and influential, but judging from the billions spent on tv ads each year, it's clearly VERY influential and VERY good at keeping us hooked.

Obviously other social issues contribute to the problem, but once it's accepted that a commerically motivated, morally bankrupt media can lead people any which way they please, then dismissing corporate responsibility as some minor distraction seems blindly irresponsible.

At what point does an organization reach such size that it no longer has to answer to its actions? How can you resolve the conflict between companies feeling justified in spending billions on tv marketing, and then say they're not responsible for the effect?
 
But can the media be blamed for simply reflecting our own desires?
I am as annoyed as anyone by the reality tv and rap craze that is occurring....yet to an extent those that obsess over the bachelor, or idolize Jay Z have to be the deciding factor. Without people interested in them, reality Tv would have ended at Real World I , and rap would have sunk with Vanilla Ice. As long as there is a demand, as much as I'd like to I can hardly blame someone for supplying it.
 
Reading for pleasure

I think that people tend to think that everything they do has to be useful, i.e. arrive at some result and as a consequence people have frogotton to read for pleasure. Reading is obviously useful on a day to day basis - we would be truly lost with signs, packaging etc if we couldn't read, however, books are an escape and can casue so much thought and emotion that it seems a shame that less people are doing it!!! Sorry...this is a bit of rant, but as we're all book lovers i'm guessing your know how i feel about books.....
 
True@1stLight said:
But can the media be blamed for simply reflecting our own desires?...As long as there is a demand, as much as I'd like to I can hardly blame someone for supplying it.

In the same way marketing creates false needs and insecurities within a person and capitalises on them, the media generates its own demand and then dutifully supplies what the people want. If something is in a newspaper then it's hot news, so the editor is king, hence the saying - "we made you and we can break you."

People essentially buy what they're told to buy, listen to what they're told to listen, read whatever newspaper reaffirms their opinions, and vote how they're told to vote.
 
Dudette said:
I think that people tend to think that everything they do has to be useful, i.e. arrive at some result and as a consequence people have frogotton to read for pleasure.

I agree. Plus i don't think books have much of a chance. The west is driven by advertising and when books are up against videogames, special effects laden films, and numbing shows on tv - it's no wonder they lose out. It's the same battle for minds that the rich fastfood companies have so convincingly won against the healthier options.
 
Daniel, really great points and said very well!! I agree with every word :)

Also, the point First Light made about thease programs being a reflection. Unfortunatly, I think this is true. I mean, look in any office or work place. What do people talk about? Art, lit, music, history, philosophy? No, they talk about So and so said this. Such and such said that. Did you hear what X is doing now? Sandra was late this week for the 10th time. Maybe they might say, did you hear what celeb X is doing now? Did you hear that X football team one X game? The conversions are banal, bitchy, shallow and often celeb obsessed. So yeah, I think programs like Big Brother, Jerry Springer and so on are just reflections of the way things are. I find this both sad and scary :)
 
Oh come on!

Some people like to read tabloids and watch Jerry Springer, and some people like to read Homer and go to museums.

Is one better than the other?

Cheers
 
I don't think anybody is saying that one is better than the other. I am certainly not :) What I am saying, and I think the others, is that a society where everybody conforms is bad. Wouldn't you agree not thinking for yourself is bad?

Not only is conformity bad for the individual, but our society as a whole because there is less invention and originality and all the art that is created from that. It can only be a bad thing.

Also, people lack the will to fufill themselfs. Do you really think a life sat on your sofa, going nowhere and consuming bags of tater chips while you consume Opera and Big brother is really living? This, also, has got to be bad. Our society has become ( and getting worse ) A place of mindless consuming zombies. This is a bad thing for our society and those people as an indiviual.

So, in summation. It's not that anybody is better or not, but that fact like can and should be so much more.
 
Do you really think a life sat on your sofa, going nowhere and consuming bags of tater chips while you consume Opera and Big brother is really living?
To many people it is, yes. And they're not 'conforming' to anything, they just like it that way.

Cheers
 
Martin said:
Some people like to read tabloids and watch Jerry Springer, and some people like to read Homer and go to museums.

Is one better than the other?

Some people might like to do all 4, the point is that going to museums and reading homer encourages more independant or critical thinking than watching jerry springer. You need only look across the pond and into the whitehouse to see what a nation of springer viewers gets you - blind media driven nationalism to the tune of thousands of innocent lives.

edit: in case that dig at america offends anyone - i actually like america. Spend about 3 months a year there. But frankly it scares me silly the way its powerful media has lost its teeth and stepped into line behind bush, with the effect that hardly any opposing views have been shown until michael moore came along. And even that was dropped by the distributor until cannes lit a fire under its ass.
 
Don't think it is possible to like that. They are just too afraid to do anything else with their lives. Thinking and being different is very scary. When you are not part of the pack, you are on your own.

This IS conforming. Also, they are conforming that they are being fed a diet of trash that tells them what to wear, what to drink and what to think. This IS conforming.

Drink coco cola.
 
Daniel said:
Some people might like to do all 4, the point is that going to museums and reading homer encourages more independant or critical thinking than watching jerry springer. You need only look across the pond and into the whitehouse to see what a nation of springer viewers gets you - blind media driven nationalism to the tune of thousands of innocent lives.

Daniel. Two words. You ROCK! :D

HERE HERE! Well said!
 
You need only look across the pond and into the whitehouse to see what a nation of springer viewers gets you - blind media driven nationalism to the tune of thousands of innocent lives.
I would say that 250 million people voted for that government, but I don't wanna get into that discussion.


Some people might like to do all 4, the point is that going to museums and reading homer encourages more independant or critical thinking than watching jerry springer.
You do realise that there are people out there that have a hard enough time just getting food on the table for themselves and their family - they don't give a rat's ass about 'independent or critical thinking', all they care about is 'I hope my boss will be able to pay me again next week'. And they have a right to do so.

And Wabbit, if you'll tell me you've never had a glass of Coca Cola, or worn Adidas shoes, I'll show you a liar.

Cheers
 
Martin said:
You do realise that there are people out there that have a hard enough time just getting food on the table for themselves and their family - they don't give a rat's ass about 'independent or critical thinking'.

Yeah i can sympathise with that, and it's the manipulation of those people that especially winds me up. I see poor kids on the local estates and i know their parents struggle with money, but thanks to the peer pressure induced by marketing, they have to save even more to give their kids the latest beckham shirts, adidas trainers and console systems.
 
That's nonsense - being poor isn't the same thing as being stupid; if these people don't want to buy those shirts, they don't, and if they do, then that's a conscious decision on their part.

Of course there are adds and their kids will nag and whine because they want a big mac, and that will always be the case, but in the end it's a concsious decision.

Cheers
 
People don't have to be stupid to be influenced by adverts, but i guess it helps. As for the nagging. I wouldnt know, i'm not a parent, but if my kid had his heart set on a pair of trainers as endorsed by his favourite football player as seen in his favourite football magazine that he buys because his friends buy it and he doesnt want to feel left out - then, for the sake of peace and his temporary happiness, i'd consider buying them. Sure it's a conscious decision, but that doesnt diminish the effect marketing has on it.
 
Point well made.

In general, I agree with you, but you are taking it several steps too far, in my opinion.

So, what is the solution to this Sodom and Gomorrah-type situation?

Cheers
 
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