Religion & Reading

[ions]

That's just it. I can't go down to Chapters and pick up a copies of The Holy Bible, Koran and whatever the Hindu religious text may be, forgive me I don't know, read them, and be up to speed. There is so much to study beyond the books alone. Can you read these texts you mention without reading the Holy texts first?

 

[Sitaram]

That's just it. I can't go down to Chapters and pick up a copies of The Holy Bible, Koran and whatever the Hindu religious text may be, forgive me I don't know, read them, and be up to speed. There is so much to study beyond the books alone. Can you read these texts you mention without reading the Holy texts first?

I see your situation. I will continue to compile a sort of reading list, in the previous post, for those who may be interested. But, I shall try to put together some various excerpts which might serve as "Comparative Religion for Dummies" or "101", in a nutshell; something which someone could read in just a few hours and get some kind of orientation.

Tomorrow night is Friday, so I am off work until Monday morning.

I shall pretend that the entire population of the earth has been destroyed through some natural calamity, and I am the sole survivor. Aliens land (who miraculously speak English) and ask if I would please write down from memory everything I can recall about the religions of humanity, in ten pages or less.

Actually, this is a little game we played in college, called "The earth is suddenly destroyed and aliens come and kindly request..."

It was a cheap trick to get ourselves to write essays and term papers, but it worked.

I know, I shall make it into a sci-fi short story, and post it in the sci-fi section (or creative writing). And since it is only a story, I can spew all the religious talk I please, and no one shall be offended, or any the wiser.

(This may take me until Sunday night, but, as soon as I have something of interest, I shall post as a "work in progress")

By the way, you might want to take a look at this post, since it has a lot to do with religion in literature and literature in religion:

http://forums.thebookforum.com/showthread.php?p=124253#post124253

(especially the second half, "Taking Off Our Shoes")

 

[ions]

I walked around the bookstore for a good half hour holding The Koran debating if I really wanted to read it. To help make the decision I sat down at a free chair and did some reading. I put the book back. This next statement is probably crossing the line of what is acceptable in terms of religious discussion but regardless it is the reason I put the book back. The more familiar I become with religious content the more I am disgusted by the impact it's had throughout history. It's possible I may enjoy the books I read being ignorant of the religious context.

 

[Sitaram]

I walked around the bookstore for a good half hour holding The Koran debating if I really wanted to read it. To help make the decision I sat down at a free chair and did some reading. I put the book back. This next statement is probably crossing the line of what is acceptable in terms of religious discussion but regardless it is the reason I put the book back. The more familiar I become with religious content the more I am disgusted by the impact it's had throughout history. It's possible I may enjoy the books I read being ignorant of the religious context.

Regarding forum rules, I was informed that one is free to refer to religion as long as what is said is germane to the understanding of some book under discussion.

I have been thinking about you and your question since Friday. I was wondering if you would post again. Obviously it is weighing heavily upon your mind.

I am glad you brought this up, since you reminded me to list another book in my previous post of the list of books I suggest to help people gain some foundation for appreciating allusions to religion within literature.

That Book is "Islamic Invasion" by Robert Morey ISBN 0-89081-983-1

By the way, if you read only one book from my list, then make that "World Religions" by Huson Smith. That is the most painless and efficient way to get a quick foundation of sorts.

I do not recommend that someone read through the Qu'ran purely for the sake of appreciating something like "The Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie.

Let me tell you a little story, a true story, about when I was in High School, and a teacher suggested that I read "The Alexandrian Quartet; Justine, Balthazar, Mount Olive and Clea" by Lawrence Durrell. Those novels opened up a whole other word for a 17 year old young man. As I remember, everything was set in Alexandria, Egypt in the early part of the 19th century.
The novels were not about religion per se, but did make a few references to Islam.

You know, I confess to being a dreadful speller. I had to google just now (the lazy man's dictionary) on Lawrence DuRReLL to avoid spelling his name incorrectly. I noticed that a movie was made of Justine

http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=26863

I have not seen it but would enjoy seeing it very much since I enjoyed the books so much as a teenager.

By the way, since I just mentioned google.com and posted a link, I must say that I see no reason in the world why you could not acquire some of the background you desire by reading the proper selection of web pages. There are so many essays and synopses of all the religions, as well as essays on various novels like East of Eden which will explain various religious aspects.


Anyway, back to my anecdote from high school. There was one scene which stuck in my mind. I can't remember now which of the four novels this scene was in, but that’s not important. Durrell describes some Muslim business men who hire a muzzine to recite for them various passages from the Qu'ran. Those businessmen weep as they listen to the beauty of the recitation.

Well, I was most impressed. I decided that I knew absolutely nothing about Islam or the Qu'ran, but I must go out at once and purchase a translation and read it cover to cover. I purchased a translation of the Koran (an alternate spelling popular in the 1940s through 60s) by Muhammed Marmaduke Pickthall.

Speaking of translations of the Qu'ran, there are so many available on the Internet for free, that you may read on-line, or download as text, if you are bound and determined to read through it.

I purchased the Pickthall translation in my Senior year of high school. That Summer, before I left for St. John's in Annapolis, I sat with a pen in hand, and read the Qu'ran cover to cover, marking each and every unfamiliar word, and looking it up in the dictionary. I still have that original paperback copy.

I am very glad for my experience in reading it, but I must admit that I was never once brought to tears by the beauty of it. I am told that the real beauty lies in reading it in the original Arabic, so I am told.

I was extremely curious all of my life regarding religions and scriptures and prayer and worship precisely because my parents, who were nominal Protestants, never once brought me to a house of worship of any kind.

One of the greatest benefits for any child, in attending Sunday school, is that they are less likely to go through life as a religious fanatic, in a crazed search for proverbial truth and beauty.

I understand, Ion, what you are saying about the deplorable effects of religions in world history. But one may equally well make the same sort of observations about government and politics.

Let us explore an kind of analogy, if you will. I shall discuss the pros and cons of politics in human history, and we shall experiment with how accurate it is to substitute the word religion into those same statements and observations.

We may start with Aristotle's famous statement that "Man is by nature a political animal;" an imitative political animal with logos (speech and reason).

http://www.artsci.lsu.edu/fai/Faculty/Professors/Protevi/Fh/ARhet.html

We can certainly go on for hours and hours, I imagine, about the evils government kings and tyrants and dictators have wrought throughout human history. But we can equally go on for hours about all the benefits of political organization. It is not fair or accurate to say that human political activity is evil or unnecessary simply because it has been misused.

There is an ancient Greek account of a city which begged Solon to come and give it laws.

Now, often we find the law troublesome and annoying, perhaps even unfair, but life without law and enforcement and courts is far more troublesome and dangerous.

It is ironic that, at this very moment, as I add to this post, a college student in her 4th year has PM’ed me in AOL. She first contacted me 6 years ago with various "theological questions." Just now, I replied to her: "It seems to me that people go through life seeking some human embodiment of truth which will not betray or disappoint them. Some seek it in a religious leader, others in a political leader, yet others in an intellectual leader."

She first contacted me six years ago to ask, "What is purity?"

We had a long conversation, in which I said, "Purity is to pass through all, experience all, become all, yet cling to nothing, and remain untainted."

Is my statement philosophical? Is my statement religious? One might be tempted to say, at first glance, that my statement is anything but political. And yet, there is a way I might argue that my statement is a political one. Someone made the statement that part of the greatness of George Washington was his willingness to return to private life after his term in office, rather than to cling to that position of power. Such humility, if you will, not to cling, is a form of political purity. Gandhi certain entered into political life, and yet one sees that same sort of purity. Einstein was offered the position of prime minister in the newly formed state of Israel, but declined the honor, explaining that he was better suited to the life of a scientist than to the life of a political leader.

My father was close friend with one of the many vice presidents of a large pharmaceutical and cosmetic company, whom I shall call Jason, though that is not his name. Jason was a devout Catholic with a large family of six children. Jason's work required him to travel often and attend many conventions. At one convention, he had occasion to do business with a very young woman who was very beautiful. For some reason, the occasion arose for them to go to his room, to fetch some documents. Once in the room, she asked if she might use the restroom. She emerged from the restroom stark naked. Now, what do you suppose Jason did? He was very politically correct. He said, "Let's say you get dressed and we go have some dinner."
She laughed and said this was the first time in her life she had to put her clothes on to get a dinner.

We might ponder Jason's actions. We may see certain religious aspects of this event. We may also see certain political aspects of this even. If you disagree that there is a political dimension, then I have only one word of rebuttal for you: Lewinsky (and perhaps the movie Fatal Attraction).

I doubt if I would have the forebearance and equanimity of Jason, to resist such a temptation with such an immediate and compassionate response.



With regard to your desire to read Steinbeck's East of Eden with greater understanding, perhaps you could read it and consult various essays and interpretations on the Internet. Sparknotes.com is free and can be very informative, for starters:

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/eastofeden/

 

[Sitaram]

Regarding "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel, I was shocked to scour the net with search engines, several months ago, and find so little on the significance of the ships name, Tsimtsum, with regard to Luria and the mysticism of the Kaballa.

Take a peak at this preview sampling PDF from a site similar to sparknotes.
Even the free sample is quite instructive:

http://lib.store.yahoo.com/lib/monkeynote/pmLifeOfPiSample.pdf


There is so much we can learn for free just with a search engine. We could read for hours upon hours.

Basically, I suppose, what we are talking about is a matter of deconstruction.
An author, a Martel or a Steinbeck, has certain things in mind as he constructs his novel. Steinbeck', choice of the name Adam Trask seem rather transparent; Adam, Eden, Eve.... and trask sounds like "task", which is work, and part of the biblical story is that Adam is expelled from paradise and must work and suffer "by the sweat of his brow" to eek out his sustenance from a reluctant soil.

Each of us must decide how we wish to spend our free time and our discretionary income. We must decide what our goals are, and why we wish to pursue such goals; what do we hope to achieve should we be successful in our endeavors?

Mark Twain once said something like, "the definition of great literature is books that everyone wants to say they have read but no one wants to spend the time reading" (paraphrased from memory).

I went through St. John's Great Book program, in Annapolis, MD, together with one student in his thirties, Dan, an army veteran who had been stationed in Korea. While overseas, he did a lot of reading and happened to read Mortimer Adler's "How to Read a Book." (by the way, I found the complete text of that book on line). Adler's book mentioned St. John's and the great book program started by the University of Chicago. Dan told me that one reason why he wanted to go through the St. John's program was that he would like to read those 100 great books, but he realized that he could never have the discipline and focus to read through them in his spare time. Some of those books, like Ptolemy's Almagist on ancient Astronomy, or Apollonius' treatise on conic sections, are quite daunting, even for a full time student.

I was most grateful for the luxury of those four years at St. John's. After I graduated in the late 60's, my father told me that the whole thing had cost $16,000 for four years, including books, wine, cheese, movies. And he had paid for it by selling some stocks which he had purchased for only $500. And they had increased in value that much.

When I was a freshman, someone asked me if I wanted to make a few dollars in the dining hall. I thanked them for the offer, but explained that I had no need of money, and that I wanted to spend every possible moment studying. Their reaction to my response revealed some disdain. But, I had my agenda. I wanted to try to achieve something for myself.

Each year we were required to write a serious essay, and stand an oral examination in front of a committee, in order to proceed to the next year of study. Three of my four essays are on line at my website, if they are of any help. They basically deal with methods of deconstruction and interpretation. They are my own original thought, based on that St. John's experience. Perhaps I am mistaken in some of my notions. I cannot say that I arrived at irrefutable truth. If you correspond with me regarding literature or religion, then all I have to offer you is myself, for better or worse, and what I have thought and experiences these past fifty years.

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/method.htm

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/prolegommena.htm

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/historyofphilosophy.htm

There is so much we can learn for free just with a search engine. We could read for hours upon hours.

Basically, I suppose, what we are talking about is a matter of deconstruction.
Author like Patel or Steinbeck, has certain things in mind as he constructs his novel. Steinbeck choosing the name "Adam Trask" seem rather transparent; Adam, Eden, Eve.... and trask sounds like "task", which is work, and part of the biblical story is that adam is expelled from paradise and must work and suffer "by the sweat of his brow" to eek out his sustance from a relucant soil.

Each of us must decide how we wish to spend our free time and our discretionary income. We must decide what our goals are, and why we wish to pursue such goals; what do we hope to achieve should we be successful in our endeavors?

Mark Twain once said something like, "the definition of great literature is books that everyone wants to say they have read but no one wants to spend the time reading" (paraphrased from memory).

I went through St. John's Great Book program, in Annapolis, MD, together with one student in his thirties, Dan, an army veteran who had been stationed in Korea. While overseas, he did a lot of reading and happened to read Mortimer Adler's "How to Read a Book." (by the way, I found the complete text of that book on line). Adler's book mentioned St. John's and the great book program started by the University of Chicago. Dan told me that one reason why he wanted to go through the St. John's program was that he would like to read those 100 great books, but he realized that he could never have the discipline and focus to read through them in his spare time. Some of those books, like Ptolemy's Almagist on ancient Astronony, or Appolonius' treatise on conic sections, are quite daunting, even for a full time student.

I was most grateful for the luxury of those four years at St. John's. After I graduated in the late 60's, my father told me that the whole thing had cost $16,000 for four years, including books, wine, cheese, movies. And he had paid for it by selling some stocks which he had purchased for only $500. And they had increased in value that much.

When I was a freshman, someone asked me if I wanted to make a few dollars in the dining hall. I thanked them for the offer, but explained that I had no need of money, and that I wanted to spend every possible moment studying. Their reaction to my response revealed some disdain. But, I had my agenda. I wanted to try to achieve something for myself.

Each year we were required to write a serious essay, and stand an oral examination in front of a committee, in order to proceed to the next year of study. Three of my four essays are on line at my website, if they are of any help. They basically deal with methods of deconstruction and interpretation. They are my own original thought, based on that St.John's experience. Perhaps I am mistaken in some of my notions. I cannot say that I arrived at irrefutable truth. If you correspond with me regarding literature or religion, then all I have to offer you is myself, for better or worse, and what I have thought and experiences these past fifty years. I realize that this forum as strict rules, not only with regard to the discussion, but also with regard to posting links to ones own site. You will notice that I make no attempt in my profile to post links as part of my signature. I post links to my three college essays as a convenience to those who would like to see what St. Johns was like (and see my post regarding the seminar on Baudelaire), and also, to save bandwidth and disk space on this forum server, since it is impratical to repost such essays here.


http://toosmallforsupernova.org/method.htm

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/prolegommena.htm

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/historyofphilosophy.htm

In some ways, I suppose, reading and analyzing novels and attempting to deconstruct them like this is just like solving a crossword puzzle. Some people are crossword puzzle addicts. If you were to decide, tomorrow, to take up crossword puzzles as your passtime, why, undoubtedly, there would be many words you would not know, and you might by books designed specifically for solving crossword puzzles. If you persisted in your endeavor, then, as they years pass, you would get better and better, until you could quickly solve some puzzles in record time without consulting any outside source.

The distinctions between literature, prose, poetry, religion and philosophy sometimes blur. Boundaries are hazy rather then sharply defined.

Take a look at this assortment of passages from Jorge Luis Borges, Thomas Wolfe, the Bhagavad-Gita, et. al. regarding something which I attempt to label as a spatio-temporal montage.

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/page019.htm

You know, Ion, if you read through this link, and study the various passages from Borges and Wolfe and others, you will begin to see various possibilities for appreciating the religious dimensions of literature as well as the literary dimensions of religion.

 

[Sitaram]

What I am trying to do for you, in your dilemma, or for any member or guest who stumbles upon this thread, is to give you of myself, my life, my experiences, my subjective impressions. It is as if you are seated with me, at this kitchen table, and we have a bottle of wine, or a pot of coffee, and we are having a serious discussion.

There is no perfect substitute for personal association with people who have certain knowledge or experiences. In one of Salinger's novels, perhaps it is "Catcher in the Rye", Holden Caufield says

What really knocks me out is a book that, when you're all done reading it, you wish the author that wrote it was a terrific friend of yours and you could call him up on the phone whenever you felt like it. That doesn't happen much, though.

One web site, which discusses the less pleasant side of Salinger's personality, mentions that passage, and then says that if you met the real Salinger today, you would quickly be cured of any such desire.

I want to tell you a true story about a famous person who lived in the 20th century and wrote many books. He was a religious leader, so I will not say his name here out of respect for forum rules regarding religious discussions. He was a very charismatic figure. People flocked from all over the world just to have the experience of spending even a few minutes with him. He was gracious and humble, and tried to accommodate the wishes of visitors. One day, he agreed to meet with some visitors in his study. When they entered they found him reading his own books. They were surprised and curious, and asked him why he reads his own books, since, being their author, surely he must already know what they say. He looked up and smiled and said, "My books are better that I am." There is quite a bit of truth to what he said. Nietzsche once said, "I am one thing, but my books are quite another matter."

It is rumored that Plato rewrote the first page of the Republic fifty times. If you could have lunch tomorrow with Plato, you would probably jump at the chance, if only for the novelty. But lunch with Plato, or dinner with Sitaram (not that I am in their league), or breakfast with Salinger or Pynchon or Kundera, would not be the same as what they wrote, for their writings are a concentration a distillation of something that is in them.

When I was in college, we had to take a laboratory course in our freshman year, and study classic writings regarding the development of the atomic theory. We read articles reprinted by The Alembic Club. I remember one author's name, Cannizzaro, Stanislao, (1826-1910). The word alembic denotes a kind of laboratory glassware, used for distillation.

There is an alembic within us which can distill a little each day, if we choose to write it down. Then there is a virtual alembic in cultures which distills a little from decade to decade with no effort on our parts that we may consciously perceive.

Thoughts flow. Words flow. Thoughts and words are like water. A gradual flow slowly creates a small pool. We pool our thoughts and efforts.

The bee, the cow and the viper all thirst, for all which lives must drink. The three come to drink from the same pool. The bee transforms the water into honey. The cow transforms the water into milk. The viper transforms the water into poisonous venom. But, it is all the same water. Words by themselves are neither good nor evil, neither true nor false, but simply wait to be. And it is a bee which visits many flowers, collecting and distilling.

It is an artifact of the English language that our word distill contains the word still. It is in the stillness of each morning that I collect and distill my thoughts.

And in the stillness of the self, the still, small voice, their dwells the ghosts of many, a ructive multitude of heritage. Traditions swarm.

Each nacreous word is haloed with thoughts, each thought crepuscular.
The thoughts become ideas. Ideas become worlds. And worlds are words again as suns set, and a numinous glow at dusk precedes the night.

We have left the real now and entered a mood which is a world of dreams. And this new world is more than real, for it is feeling, expressed from the vintage of substance.

Am I god or ghost who leads you here?

Beauty, Bowdlerized as Truth

Understanding is the Sphinx' death,
Bursting mystery's numinous bubble.
Answers kill wonder and awe.
Wisdom slays childhood and innocence.
Sobriety and moderation
Chain the manic frenzy of inspiration,
Where formerly daemon and muse took possession.

Beyond the bronze of being,
The mind's lust fantasizes,
Stripping Draupadi naked
From her infinite attire.
The more we pull and yank,
The more she spins,
A dervish uncontrolled.
Heidegger, that red-eyed elder peeping,
Spies Being, bathing in her garden,
"Preferring not to" is her sweet refrain.
Our minds becomes entangled.
And it is then we know
That thought leads not the way out of this cave.
Our starry, upward gaze is dizzying.

I am an ugly Daedelus, singed
By perfection imagined, out of reach.
This vicious syndrome,
Poems amplified
In Phalerus' infundibulum,
Have deafened me
More than waxen Sirens' antidotes.
Psalms, become sonnets, reverting, again psalmic;
Sonic booms,
As time comes to a
Light-speed's screeching halt,
And galaxies implode,
To singularities.

Can a poem be discussed in prose?
Or is the tuning fork, in sympathy,
Trembling, in vrittic emulation,
The only accord reached?

- Sitaram