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Rich Dad/Poor Dad - Education

Motokid said:
Because common sence would say that the more education you have, the more money you should make. The more money you make the less debt you should carry. You argue more people are getting higher educations. Why then are people digging deeper and deeper financial holes for themselves.
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Why? Rampant Consumerism.

People seem to think if they want it, they should have it. It has nothing to do with need. Why are people in so much debt? Simple - they spend more than they make! What ever happened to 'saving up' for something? People are constantly inundated with ads that tell them, "buy now, pay later; zero percent down; why wait, you can own it now; no problem." They may only make enough to pay for rent and food, but what the heck, they've been told it's okay to be in debt up to their eyeballs because it helps the economy! And guess what, people actually believe it. People have been bamboozled by massive marketing campaigns that tell them they must own x, y and z in order to be beautiful, successful and worthy! One of my biggest beefs is when I see young couples go into debt so they can have a home completely furnished with new, matching furniture and appliances. What's wrong with good, used furniture until you can afford it? Good God, are they so worried that their friends and family will think they're not successful if they don't own the latest?

It's a pile of horse manure to buy into the idea that one's success should be measured by the size of your house, the number of cars in the garage, the number of plasma TVs you own, or the size of your bank account. You need enough money for adequate housing, food, clothing and a few luxuries that make life worth living. You do not need the biggest TV money can buy, gas-guzzling SUVs, a 3,000 sq ft house, and two vacations a year!

Colleges are lowering entrance requirements or they face losing enrollment. Kids with high levels of sports talent are let into prestigious schools with next to no academic requirements.
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Not around here. The academic requirements are higher than they've ever been. The universities here are turning away well-qualifed, excellent students who score 80 - 90% (we don't use SATs) on their provincial exams.

I don't know that there are many people in America that would say that kids graduating from high school today are better prepared for life in the business world than they were 4 or 5 generations ago.
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Ah, now you're talking about being prepared for life in the "business world".
 
Motokid said:
Colleges are lowering entrance requirements or they face losing enrollment.
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As Ell said, college entrance requirements are higher than ever, college admission is far more competitive than it was 20 years ago. The number of applicants is huge. I worked at a private 4-year liberal arts college in NY State from 93-97, watching this trend develop.



I don't know that there are many people in America that would say that kids graduating from high school today are better prepared for life in the business world than they were 4 or 5 generations ago.
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Four or five generations ago, there was no "business world." You're talking about the early 19th century. Most people in the US earned a living on farms, in small factories, as craftsmen. Only the most priviledged were educated at college, and women not even that (they're only 51% of the population, but who's counting). Women weren't allowed to vote, very few legally owned property. Let's not even mention slavery and immigrants.

Or are you referring exclusively to the richest 2% of white men in America? What business world existed for them? They owned everything by default, but they didn't have to learn calculus, physics, basic electronics, and loads of other subjects the well educated learn today. Think of what a doctor in 1820 had to know--they barely had hygiene, let alone cell-level knowledge of diseases. Think of what a doctor in 2005 is expected to know.

The same is true of engineers of all types, architects, lawyers . . .

The body of knowledge required for a professional now is really comparatively awesome.
 
Isn't the purpose of sending children to school to teach them how to be productive, contributing members of society when they reach a certain age?
To not need welfare. To not need government hand outs, to not need Mom and Dad well inot their 20's and 30's. And more importantly to not need the country to take care of them after they retire?

Is that not "training" them how to survive in the world of business?
Which in it's broadest sense is the working world. The saving world, the spending world. The world we live in.

Don't people who have one or more mortgages, car payments, college loans, multiple credit cards that are maxed out, and are living paycheck to paycheck need better finacial eduaction? Don't they lack the kind of financial education they need?
 
I agree with Ell that a lot of our problems today are brought on by rampant consumerism coupled with the expectations of incredibly high standards of living. From someone who's had to go to stress management therapy, I will go so far as to say that some of the world's mental "disease" can also be blamed on these two factors. People come to expect perfection and never how to learn to deal with less than that.

I do see a trend in education. I'm in engineering, and if you look for jobs, the companies want experience or a graduate education. It's getting harder to find a technical job straight out of college. I see this as a devaluing of the currency that is a BS degree. So, now, more people are staying in school longer, depending on the gov't and parents to provide for them. Lately, someone has coined "twixters" for this demographic. I've come up with "educational inflation" to describe this trend of needing more education to get a job. Let me know if someone has already coined this. :) Is the devaluing because we've allowed in more people by lowering our standards? Is it because the knowledge you need to make a successful career now exceeds what you can receive in a traditional BS program? A combination maybe?

When I got my BS, there were people that were passing on the merit of effort alone, which isn't good for the quality of your degree. They were upping the standards for grades, but it seemed like the teachers would just be a little more lenient or offer chances for extra credit and "retakes". However, I have no hard (numerical or statistical) evidence for leniency vs. higher standards, only this anecdotal recollection.

As far as a person's fiscal responsibility, I feel like that comes mainly from the home, and in today's consumer world, kids are getting the wrong message. All the families I know took out loans constantly to pay for vacations, proms, etc. I never had any lessons in money management until college, and money management is one of those things that you have to learn from experience. Learning from a text book will not suffice, but maybe there does need to be an emphasis on money management and "life skills" at some point for all students. How many kids took math and never knew how to apply it? Plenty of social problems point to a need for better understanding of finances. Marriages end all the time due to money problems, and consumer credit plays a big role in the economy. However, I realize money, teachers and classrooms don't grow on trees. I went to a small school, and we barely had enough classes to make requirements for graduation.

What I do see as the main problem in schools is the speed. All the exchange students thought school here was a breeze because some of them had calculus in 8th grade! I didn't have calculus until my second semester in college! I know children today are expected to know music, play sports and get an education, but we have to find how to push for more without taking more time. This is why I think that children will almost have to be divided earlier than high school to get the most out of their education. This is buying into the idea that your team is only as fast as your slowest teammate. It holds for everything else, right?

We're still using the same basic system that we've used for at least 200 years. Is there anything that hasn't been outdated in the last 200 years? Our system is ripe for an overhaul. However, I only have questions and ideas, no solutions.

One final thought on our education system. Have you guys seen the studies on single sex class rooms? They point to improvements in scores all around, tests, leadership skills, etc. I welcome the idea. What do you guys think?

Sorry for the long post. I don't get to do this that much, so when I do, I have to make good on it. :)
 
RitalinKid said:
One final thought on our education system. Have you guys seen the studies on single sex class rooms? They point to improvements in scores all around, tests, leadership skills, etc. I welcome the idea. What do you guys think?
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I think it's one of those ideas that sound good until you start to think about the details. Can you insure that they will be taught the same? Or will a girl suddenly be told, it's Ok, you aren't expected to do well in math. In an ideal situation with ideal teachers, it would work great. With less than perfect teachers bringing their biases into the classroom, issue could abound.

Truthfully, I would've been a headcase if I had to be alone in a room with the girls in my high school. And I don't think the presence of boys caused all that stupidity.
 
Ashlea, that's the thing; this wasn't just a theory or some calculation. The study I saw on CNN was just information (scores, etc.) gathered from real classrooms where students were split up by gender. They didn't go to separate schools (that I remember), but they were just in separate classes. If I can find the CNN article, I'll post a link.
 
I couldn't find it on CNN, but I did find this quote:

"...They especially liked the improvements in students' math and science
test scores, said Richard Dowdy, assistant principal at the school.

"We monitored students in the single-gender classrooms and compared
them not only against students in the traditional coed classrooms,
but also against their own past performance," Dowdy said.

Among girls, 94 percent improved their grades in science and 78
percent improved in math. Teachers observed that girls seemed more
eager to ask questions in class and more willing to attempt to solve
problems in front of classmates, Dowdy said.

Boys also produced better grades. The same percentage -- 64 percent
-- demonstrated improvements in each subject.

Behavior also improved, particularly among boys. Typically, boys
produce most disciplinary problems, Dowdy said.

"Boys in the single-gender group had 48 disciplinary referrals the
first nine weeks" before they were placed in single-gender groups, he
said. "They had a total of two referrals in the second nine weeks."
Dowdy is a believer. ..."

http://mathforum.org/epigone/ncsm.members/snilberdzul

Just do a google search for "study" "single-sex" "classroom" for more results. Civil rights unions apparently do not care for the idea at all.
 
grade school - not college

I can only speak from the opinion of an American, and about the American grade school system.
And maybe more to the point, what I’m witnessing in my own little area.

There are untold numbers of reports that state that test scores of American kids are consistently falling lower and lower. There’s a reason why more and more parents are “home schooling”. There’s a reason why American test scores consistently fall below scores from other countries. There’s a reason why parents that can afford it send their kids to private schools. There’s a reason why the number of people living at or below the poverty level continues to grow. There’s a reason why so many people carry so much debt.

Whether my lame attempts to express some of the views that Kiyosaki presents are arguable or not, doesn’t change the fact that something’s not right with the pre-college, American educational system. Maybe it’s not a complete overhaul that’s needed, but some tweaking sure couldn’t hurt.

I find it hard to believe that Novella is taking the position that all is fine and dandy with the state of education in America.
I’m hoping Novella is just taking exception to the specific points I was trying to convey.
I’m hoping Novella just loves to debate.
I’m sure I did not do much justice to what Kiyosaki writes about.

America used to be one of the richest, most advanced, most educated countries in the world. That’s changing isn’t it?
 
Motokid said:
There are untold numbers of reports that state that test scores of American kids are consistently falling lower and lower. There’s a reason why more and more parents are “home schooling”. There’s a reason why American test scores consistently fall below scores from other countries. There’s a reason why parents that can afford it send their kids to private schools. There’s a reason why the number of people living at or below the poverty level continues to grow. There’s a reason why so many people carry so much debt.


I find it hard to believe that Novella is taking the position that all is fine and dandy with the state of education in America.
I’m hoping Novella is just taking exception to the specific points I was trying to convey.
I’m hoping Novella just loves to debate.

America used to be one of the richest, most advanced, most educated countries in the world. That’s changing isn’t it?
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Moto,

Of course I just love to debate.

I have not heard anything about these lower test scores. In fact, I think schools with lots of poor kids are perennially plagued with low test scores and always have been, but it is not an overall trend in the country.

I've spelled out my position on these questions pretty clearly. My view is that schools are not doing as badly as you or the cited author make out. Schools are far from static, complacent entities; they are always striving to improve. Every school district in the US demands it, not least because a school's reputation greatly affects property values.

Every school district in the US has an ongoing committee or several who are working to improve their results, in number of kids who are promoted, graduate, who go to college, on test scores, and on overall grade levels. It's a very complex challenge.

Americans are comparatively well educated and enjoy a very high standard of living. American educators also have to deal with issues that most European countries and Japan do not: huge, changing immigrant populations who don't speak English and are struggling with an unfamiliar culture. Japan, France, Germany, Italy, etc. have largely homogeneous native populations to educate.

We have no national language, and so are legally obliged to provide instruction in a student's native language. A huge hurdle. Communicating with new-immigrant parents is another.

But it's the flow and flux of immigration in America that makes it so culturally, economically, and socially robust.


BTW, I attribute any growth (it's quite a small percentage, in fact) in homeschooling to fundamentalist religious parenting and "alternative" lifestyle baloney. The homeschoolers I know were recently hit with a whooping cough outbreak (they socialize together) because the parents don't "believe" in vaccines.
 
State of Delaware - 8th grade Math

Here are the results from Delaware's Standardized test for 8th grade math.
(8th graders are 13-14 years old on average)

These percentages are for the entire state.

26.5% Well Below Standard
23.3% Below Standard
32.1% Meets the Standard
8.3% Exceeds The Standard
9.8% Distinguished

So 49.8% of all 8th grade kids in Delaware score below the Standard.

I am not impressed.
 
10th grade math in Delaware

Here are the results from Delaware's Standardized test for 10th grade math.
(10th graders are 15-16 years old on average)

These percentages are for the entire state.

20.2% Well Below Standard
26.8% Below Standard
30.1% Meets the Standard
7.3% Exceeds The Standard
15.7% Distinguished

47% below standard

Is it the test, or the students, or the system?
 
standard as defined by the state

The Delaware Student Testing Program is designed to do the following:
 serve as a measure of progress toward the Delaware Standards;
 ensure that students can apply their academic skills to realistic, everyday problems;
 promote better instruction and curriculum by providing timely reports of students' strengths and weaknesses;
 serve as a primary indicator in the statewide accountability system;
 help districts deal with the issue of who should and should not be promoted from grade to grade.

The DSTP is based on the Delaware content standards. The standards are the result of several years of work by Delaware educators to determine what Delaware students should know and be able to do as a result of their education. The standards for English language arts, mathematics, science, and social studies were approved by the State Board of Education in 1995.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4496911.stm

Exremely interesting experiment that I considered putting in the "Only in England" thread, but then figured it's be better here.

You advance when ready in this school. No age limitations.
Very interesting to watch how this works. I hope they publish the results.

Amazing how many parents of kids attending this school have very minimal education themselves.
 
I don't know how I feel about same gender classes. Most studies do show an impovement, but that's not the real world. Girl generally alway improve because they also feel shy with boys in class, like they don't want to answer questions. Let them alone, they feel no need to act a certain way or let the boys answer. But I don't see this happening.

As for ACTs/SATs lots of college are dropping them. Major reason they are an extremely poor predictor of a person success rate in college. That is the reason they are used. To try and determine if a person will do well. But they are huge failure at that prediction. High test score people drop out just as much or more than lower test score people.

Standarized testing-it's here to stay for a while. No Child Left Behind is taking care of that. It's a horrid way to grade students. It's a waste of time. It drives the schools and teachers insane. Lots of money and power over the schools are riding on those scores. You want to know where the money is in education? The books and the test...guess who makes both. yeah one company will make both. Huge amounts of money is making the books and tests.
 
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