Serial killer novels?

[Vespertilio91]

Back on subject...

I would suggest The Killing Hour or The Survivor's Club. Both are written by Lisa Gardner. She puts it in many different points of view throughout the story and it helps you understand how each person reacts better than through just one set of eyes.

 

[Doug Johnson]

I'm not so sure that he enjoyed the killing, but more that he felt that the killing was necessary.

"Hitler is another historical figure whose sadism emerges not only in the "final solution," but also in his sexual use of whipping and sadistic pornography, his sexual abuse of a niece who later suicided, and his creation of a private pseu-do-religion made up of fragments of grail legends and European and Tibetan black magic (Ravenscroft, 1973)."

 

[Doug Johnson]

most mass murderers commit suicide

“Research has shown, for example, that only about one in five mass murderers commit suicide after the homicidal event (Duwe 2000, 2004).”

Western Criminology Review 6(1), 59-78 (2005)
A Circle of Distortion: The Social Construction of Mass Murder in the United States
Grant Duwe
Minnesota Department of Corrections

 

[Doug Johnson]

But again, this book is a work of /fiction/. It is not necessary to have empathy for the victims of a fictional serial killer because they don't exist.

I will conceed that a writer can do whatever the heck they want, if they don't expect readers to care.

IMO, however, in good fiction, readers care about the characters.

 

[beer good]

I will conceed that a writer can do whatever the heck they want, if they don't expect readers to care.

IMO, however, in good fiction, readers care about the characters.

Right. And those of us who have actually read and loved "American Psycho" care about Patrick Bateman. Give it a whirl sometime, it's a great book.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

"Hitler is another historical figure whose sadism emerges not only in the "final solution," but also in his sexual use of whipping and sadistic pornography, his sexual abuse of a niece who later suicided, and his creation of a private pseu-do-religion made up of fragments of grail legends and European and Tibetan black magic (Ravenscroft, 1973)."

I'm not quite sure what you were trying to prove with this. It has nothing to do with his motives for killing, nor how he felt about those he killed. I'm not even sure how reliable this quote is. He didn't sexually abuse his neice - he married her (I'm assuming the quote is referring to Eva Braun who suicided at the same time as Hitler himself). The sexual fetishes and black magic things I have never heard of before - could you be more specific in detailing your source? It sounds like a load of bullocks to me. But again, this has nothing to do with him killing others, so I'm not sure why you posted it.

I will conceed that a writer can do whatever the heck they want, if they don't expect readers to care.

IMO, however, in good fiction, readers care about the characters.

I disagree completely. I loved Small Island by Andrea Levy and thought it to be "good" fiction, but I did not care one bit for any of the main characters. We have argued time and time again over the necessity for empathy for someone to enjoy a book - the argument just seems to be going around in circles.

 

[Doug Johnson]

(I'm assuming the quote is referring to Eva Braun who suicided at the same time as Hitler himself).

According to William Shirer, in his famous work The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich... Adolf's love affair with his niece. "In the summer of 1928, Hitler aged 39, was the Nazi party leader, and he fell in love with Geli Raubal, his 20 year old niece, the daughter of his widowed half-sister, Angela Raubal. He took her everywhere, to meetings and conferences, on long walks in the mountains and to the cafés and theaters in Munich. Gossip about the party leader and his beautiful blond niece was inevitable in Munich and throughout Nazi circles in southern Germany. By 1931, some deep rift whose origins and nature have never been fully ascertained grew between them.

"Whatever it was that darkened the love between the uncle and his niece, their quarrels became more violent and at the end of the summer of 1931 Geli announced that she was returning to Vienna to resume her voice studies. Hitler forbade her to go. The next morning Geli Raubal was found shot dead in her room. The coroner reported that a bullet had gone through her chest below the left shoulder and penetrated the heart; it seemed beyond doubt that the shot was self-inflicted. Yet for years afterward in Munich there was murky gossip that Geli Raubal had been murdered -- by Hitler in a rage, by Himmler to eliminate a situation that had become embarassing to the party. But no credible evidence ever turned up to substantiate such rumors."

 

[Doug Johnson]

I'm not quite sure what you were trying to prove with this.

I'm saying that a clinical psychologist diagnosed Hitler as being a sadist.

And that the dictionary defines sadism as: "The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain on others."

And that, without context and empathy for his vicitims, most people find that nauseating.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

I'm saying that a clinical psychologist diagnosed Hitler as being a sadist.

And that the dictionary defines sadism as: "The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain on others."

And that, without context and empathy for his vicitims, most people find that nauseating.

But what does that have to do with whether or not he enjoyed killing people? I still don't understand why you replied to the quoted segment of my reply with the comments made above. Sadism means just what you quoted above, not that they enjoy killing people. Hitler didn't get sexual gratification from killing the Jews.

I would also disagree with your ending statement. Most people would find it unsettling I'm sure, but I don't think that a majority would find it nauseating. Most people are able to seperate fact from fiction and realise that the victims are not real people, and therefore the need for empathy is flung out the window, IMO.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

According to William Shirer, in his famous work The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich... Adolf's love affair with his niece. "In the summer of 1928, Hitler aged 39, was the Nazi party leader, and he fell in love with Geli Raubal, his 20 year old niece, the daughter of his widowed half-sister, Angela Raubal. He took her everywhere, to meetings and conferences, on long walks in the mountains and to the cafés and theaters in Munich. Gossip about the party leader and his beautiful blond niece was inevitable in Munich and throughout Nazi circles in southern Germany. By 1931, some deep rift whose origins and nature have never been fully ascertained grew between them.

"Whatever it was that darkened the love between the uncle and his niece, their quarrels became more violent and at the end of the summer of 1931 Geli announced that she was returning to Vienna to resume her voice studies. Hitler forbade her to go. The next morning Geli Raubal was found shot dead in her room. The coroner reported that a bullet had gone through her chest below the left shoulder and penetrated the heart; it seemed beyond doubt that the shot was self-inflicted. Yet for years afterward in Munich there was murky gossip that Geli Raubal had been murdered -- by Hitler in a rage, by Himmler to eliminate a situation that had become embarassing to the party. But no credible evidence ever turned up to substantiate such rumors."

Ah, thanks for clearing that up - but I still don't see where sexual abuse comes into it?

 

[Doug Johnson]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up - but I still don't see where sexual abuse comes into it?

He sexually abused his own niece. When she tried to leave, he wouldn't let her. She killed herself rather than spend another second with him.

 

[Doug Johnson]

But what does that have to do with whether or not he enjoyed killing people? Hitler didn't get sexual gratification from killing the Jews.

Hitler had a combination of sadism/masochism and necrophilia, which are sexual perversions. Many clinical psychologists have linked his sexual perversions to his Anti Semitism. (I’ve highlighted his “vicarious pleasure from the suffering of others” )



A Psychological Analysis of Adolph Hitler
Walter C. Langer
Office of Strategic Services
Washington, D.C.

With the collaboration of-
Prof. Henry A. Murr, Harvard Psychological Clinic
Dr. Ernst Kris, New School for Social Research
Dr. Bertram D. Lawin, New York Psychoanalytic Institute

You can read it all here:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/oss-papers/text/profile-index.html

But a couple of quotes

“When we see the connection between his sexual perversion and anti-Semitism, we can understand another aspect of his constant linking of syphilis with the Jew.”

In his treatment of the Jews we see the "Identification with the Aggressor" mechanism at work. He is now practicing on the Jews in reality the things he feared the victors might do to him in fantasy. From this he derives a manifold satisfaction. ….. as the masochist he really is, he derives a vicarious pleasure from the suffering of others in whom he can see himself;



Thanks very much for your response to my interpretation regarding sadism and rage as a defense against (or counterphobic reaction to)
masochistic identification. It is interesting your surprise at my sense of "certainty."

Well, I must confess I've been studying this phenomena for thirty years, not only (or even primarily) in a clinical context, but through my research and writings on political ideologies and personalities (see my book THE PSYCHOANALYSIS OF RACISM, REVOLUTION AND NATIONALISM).

I have found that this RAGE AGAINST PASSIVITY AND WEAKNESS lies at the heart of a great deal of radical political behavior. For example,
Hitler projected his own masochistic ego (his wish for death) onto the Jew, and then struggled to destroy the Jew as a means of killing off his own weakness. The "disease within the body of the people" that he wrote and spoke about was his own disease

Richard A Koenigsberg

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

He sexually abused his own niece. When she tried to leave, he wouldn't let her. She killed herself rather than spend another second with him.

I still don't see where you got the idea that he sexually abused his own neice. He had a relationship with her and it ended her her shooting herself. Again - where's the sexual abuse? You saying it happened is no evidence that it really occured.

Hitler had a combination of sadism/masochism and necrophilia, which are sexual perversions. Many clinical psychologists have linked his sexual perversions to his Anti Semitism. (I’ve highlighted his “vicarious pleasure from the suffering of others” )

You say that "many" have linked his sexual perversions to his Anti-Semitism - is it really "many"? This is the first that I have ever heard of this apparent sexual perversions, yet I have seen countless documentaries and read a numerous amount of books on the man in question (he used to be a huge interest of mine). You say that he was a sadist/masochist, yet that is not mentioned at all in the article that you posted: Where did this come from? His alleged "vicarious pleasure from the suffering of others" only highlights his "Identification with the Aggressor" complex (if that indeed is true". How reliable is the person that you quoted?

 

[Doug Johnson]

I still don't see where you got the idea that he sexually abused his own neice.

Try google: Hitler's niece or Geli Raubal

You say that "many" have linked his sexual perversions to his Anti-Semitism - is it really "many"?

Google gives 79,800 results for Hitler and masochism.

You say that he was a sadist/masochist, yet that is not mentioned at all in the article that you posted:

Strange. I copied two phrases that specifically mention his masochism. “Hitler projected his own masochistic ego (his wish for death) onto the Jew.” And “as the masochist he really is,”
Can you not see it?

How reliable is the person that you quoted?

He says, “Well, I must confess I've been studying this phenomena for thirty years, not only (or even primarily) in a clinical context, but through my research and writings on political ideologies and personalities”

The other report was prepared for the OSS (You might want to try google again if you don’t know what that is.) The OSS studies of Hitler predicted his eventual suicide.

 

[Stewart]

Mods, can we get this split into a Serial Killers thread and another one for Doug to talk about Hitler wearing frilly knickers or whatever it is he's on about now?

 

[Shade]

Crikey, so Google results are now acceptable substitutes for proof or relevance!

Google gives 501,000 results for Hitler and Doug Johnson.

MonkeyCatcher, for the sake of all our sanity, just stop replying to him.

 

[Doug Johnson]

MonkeyCatcher, for the sake of all our sanity, just stop replying to him.

Or stop reading. Like I said, getting inside a killer's mind seems interesting, but once you get there, the reality can be nauseating, even when the information is presented clinically.

I'd certainly be happy if we switched to a more pleasant subject.

 

[MonkeyCatcher]

MonkeyCatcher, for the sake of all our sanity, just stop replying to him.

I think I will - this is just getting ridiculous (Google gives 511,000 hits for "ridiculous" and "Doug Johnson" so it must be true).

Or stop reading. Like I said, getting inside a killer's mind seems interesting, but once you get there, the reality can be nauseating, even when the information is presented clinically.

Where is this coming from? The only slightly thing even slightly nauseating in the previous posts was your idea of a defence and proof.

 

[Doug Johnson]

Sorry if I offended you. You said you were interested. I thought you'd want to know where to find more information. But if this is what you're looking for:



“have been following the interwoven threads of Klein and masochism with
interest. A curious thing about Klein is that she almost never mentions masochism. Yet masochism plays a major role in Koenigsberg's Kleinian analysis of Hitler's genocidal imagination.”

Daniel Rancour-Laferriere



Sofsky characterizes the aim of authority as "above all to safeguard the authority itself." He posits that the foundation of authority is the power of persecution. The self-perpetuating goal of tyranny has a counterpart in clinical work. Once the omnipotent delusion is consolidated in adolescence, all the capacities and skills of the personality are coopted to maintain and protect the omnipotent belief. It becomes more important to the individual to retain a self-image as omnipotent than to be right, or good, or even alive. All behaviour and fantasies are aimed at controlling the other rather than changing the self. This repeated clinical finding from psychoanalytic cases is confirmed in studies of serial killers (Burgess et al. 1994).
Sofsky points out that violence becomes perpetual, justified in the name of the highest values, and constantly needing new victims to maintain itself. Our understanding of pathological omnipotent belief describes its roots in every level of development and its flowering in the context of sadomasochistic relationships, including the drawing in of sexuality to the omnipotent system. The apparent fulfilment of omnipotent wishes gives patients a feeling akin to a drug rush and has an addictive, insatiable quality. Kershaw said that "Power was Hitler’s aphrodisiac" (1998, p.xxvii). We have suggested elsewhere that some of Hitler’s decisions, such as the militarily fatal and unnecessary decision to invade Russia, were partly determined by his addiction to omnipotence, his need to prove his delusion was real, the need to find more victims to affirm his power to exert his will over others (Novick, Novick, and Novick 1997).





Cosgrove, Peter "Edmund Burke, Gilles Deleuze, and the Subversive Masochism of the Image"
ELH - Volume 66, Number 2, Summer 1999, pp. 405-437
The Johns Hopkins University Press

1946). Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 15:285-301
Masochism in Paranoia
Robert C. Bak, M.D.

(1995). Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 64:571-579
Das Raetsel Des Masochismus. (The Riddle Of Masochism.)
By Leon Wurmser. Heidelberg/New York: Springer Verlag, 1993. 570 PP.

The Psychology of Humiliation:
Somalia, Rwanda / Burundi, and Hitler’s Germany
Doctoral Dissertation submitted to the University of Oslo, Department of Psychology,
31st October 2000

The Dark Side of Enlightenment
Sadomasochistic Aspects of the Quest for Perfection
by Daniel Shaw CSW - December, 1999

 

[Stewart]