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smoking in public laws

I concentrated on reading the actual studies, not newspapers refering to a study without providing a actual referance. I have learned never to trust scientific information gained from a newspaper.

Have you ever sat in an enclosed space with a smoker?

I prefer to base my views on the danger of secondhand smoking by reading scientific reports rather than some subjective opinion formed while sitting in a room with a smoker.
 
bobbyburns said:
this kid in my history 101 class used to scratch his nuts then sniff his fingers. me and my buddy nicknamed him the nutscratcher.


Shite, I was distracted by factual information from this important post!

I have a related story involving the Totally Underrated Duke Ellington--An SF adventure involving real people, radio waves, nut scratching, and true love. Let me call it Sugar Plum Cherry.
 
bobbyburns said:
it always seems like the smoke blows in my direction when I'm the only one not smoking.


here here, i second that. studies or no studies. when i am biting into my big mac, washing it down with my diet coke and following up with fries, i DON"T want smoke in my face. please note i am drunk when i wrote this. seriously, thursday is the saturday of canada.
 
Okay, I have to admit that I tore out my mouth staples twice today.

Shiny purplish brown is new black for style

Yellow was new red for automotive, but now probably that shiny oilslick mix

Monday is the day for going out if you went out Thursday.

Don't go out Sunday until after 3, or else.

I love rules. They're like democracy--nonexistent until you really break something.
 
RitalinKid said:
Thursday is the Friday of a college town.
*tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ... *tschnk* gulpgulpgulpgulpgulp ahhh ...

goddamn right, it's a beautiful day.
 
back to the discussion

To de-rail back into part of the discussion….

Suppose you are the owner of a company. You are the one who gambled with every penny you own to start it. You took out the largest loans you could, used your house, and car, and everything you own as collateral. You borrowed money from every relative and friend you could borrow from. You are the one who is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of the company. You are the one who puts in more hours than anybody else. Why can’t you decide who you want working for you, and who you don’t? Why can’t you, who owns a health care company make the simplest requirement that your own employees don’t engage in something as harmful as smoking. Isn’t he hypocritical if he condones such a thing? Don’t those that smoke have the ability to work somewhere else if they don’t like the rules?

Don’t smokers have a tendency to get sick more often than non-smokers, and stay sick longer? As an owner don’t you want healthy employees. People that stay home sick more often, and for longer periods of time are no help to the business.

He may be pushing the limits of public acceptance, but it’s his company, why can’t he make the rules?
 
Motokid said:
To de-rail back into part of the discussion….


apologies i really was drunk, yikes my head today. i will read what you said later and respond...... :eek:
 
Motokid said:
He may be pushing the limits of public acceptance, but it’s his company, why can’t he make the rules?

because when does that stop, maybe he only wants black men working who don't wear glasses, maybe he will only hire nazi's, maybe he will only hire women named joan who are menopausal. i think not hiring someone for a position solely based on a habit is biased and leads down a dangerous path. how many doctors smoke, how many health care professionals are over weight?
mr. michel mentioned too about maternity leave, in canada we get a year and either parent can take it, so parents are out too?
if you own a vegetarian restaurant and your waiter eats meat, can you fire him, no.


to me it always boils down to human rights. do i have a right as a non smoker to work in a safe healthy environment and so does my employer have the right to make sure that environment is safe and healthy, of course. but does he have the right to penalize employees who may be engaging in an unhealthy activity on their own time, no.
and if he does, doesn't that open a whole different can of worms of who is to say what behaviour is acceptable/unacceptable. and who is going to monitor this? am i going to have to look over my shoulder every thursday night as i head to the liqour store, because my boss is a teetoler and doesn't want is employees drinking?
 
But why can't the guy who's invested hundred's of thousands of dollars, if not millions make the rules he wants to make? If you don't like it, work somewhere else. If he makes the rules too rediculous he won't have any employees, or any customers.

If you own a beauty salon are you going to hire fat, ugly, slovenly men, or trim, sexy, neat ladies?

If you own a security service are you going to hire sub-100lb. 18 year old high school cheerleader type girls, or +200lb., muscular, strong, aggressive bouncer type guys?

If the business owner goes crazy with rules he suffers by losing employees, and business. But why can't he make that choice? He started the business, he should be able to steer it anywhere he wants. Even if that means into the ground.
 
Suppose you own a house with a basement. You convert the basement into an apartment. To do this you sink a few thousand dollars into the renovation. So it’s going to take a few years before you realize a profit on your investment. You set a price for rent. You get 5 people who want to rent the apartment. Don’t you have the right to choose whomever you want to live there? A lot of your decision might be based on just the way the renter looks. Are you going to choose the punk rocker, 20 year old with the motorcycle with no muffler, and the cigarette hanging out of his mouth, or the 45 year old accountant with the hybrid car, glasses, and copy of Catcher In The Rye under his arm? They are both offering to pay the same amount of rent. Are you going to choose based on first come first serve, or are you going to choose based on the person who will better mesh in with your values and lifestyle?
 
jenngorham said:
if you own a vegetarian restaurant and your waiter eats meat, can you fire him, no.
This is a good example to show how "bad" habits can be relative. Ask the vegetarian, and he might tell you that the carnivore will have inflated healthcare costs and may even back it up with a study that has some nifty statistics. So, why should he hire someone who eats meat? Suppose the case goes to the Supreme Court (if it's here in the States), and they agree. Boom. You can charge carnivorous or omnivorous people more for healthcare.

What about all the situations such as car accidents and victims of violent crime that cause people to be in the hospital for weeks, months or years, costing more than some if not most cancer treatments? Accidents happen to everyone. "Sir, you've already one accident, so we're raising your healthcare payment." I'm sure there are people who get into more accidents than other people, but are we going to deny them coverage by making it too expensive for them? It's essentially saying, "Oh, you actually use the healthcare system? You're going to have to pay more. You can only pay a reasonable fee if you don't use the system."

I realize car insurance providers already use this technique, and charging more would provide some incentive to cut out certain activities, but when I turned 25, my car insurance dropped $50/month. So, because of inflated costs, some people who are under 25, just have to settle for insurance that provides benefits only for the other person they hit, not themselves. This happened to a friend of mine, and he lost a car that he was still paying on because of it. Making something cost more means that fewer people will get coverage. We're not actually making a dent in helping recover the costs from "high risk" drivers; the system's just excluding them.

What about the elderly? They cost more and usually have less money because they aren't working. We can't kick them out, and kicking out smokers will not alleviate the stress placed on the system by the elderly. This just isn't as simple as we'd like to make it. Please let me know if I'm overlooking something here on any of these matters; I'm sure I am.

Just so you know, I hate defending smokers and smoking, but I feel like I'm defending my own right to choose what activities I indulge in without fear of losing benefits. As I said before, we can't blame our increased health care prices on smokers. I would look to the healthcare providers, insurance companies and any stake the government may have in the matter. All I'm saying is that healthcare is a high profit business, and anywhere large amounts of money are trading hands, there's plenty of room for corruption. Smokers seem to be the scapegoats in this debate, diverting our attention from the real problems inside the system, not the people using the system. The solutions to fixing the system requires economic data, statistics and whole lot of information I don't have, so I won't begin to act like I know how to fix it.
 
Motokid said:
But why can't the guy who's invested hundred's of thousands of dollars, if not millions make the rules he wants to make? If you don't like it, work somewhere else. If he makes the rules too rediculous he won't have any employees, or any customers.

If you own a beauty salon are you going to hire fat, ugly, slovenly men, or trim, sexy, neat ladies?

If you own a security service are you going to hire sub-100lb. 18 year old high school cheerleader type girls, or +200lb., muscular, strong, aggressive bouncer type guys?
Some of these sound like job requirements. To throw people out of club, you have to be bigger than them. To take care of someone else's appearance, you have to be able to take care of your own appearance (which is why they would never hire me to do anything like that ;) ). If a business owner can not hire someone for activities that he disapproves of though, then you'll get people not hiring bases on other things, such as whether not the person drinks, musical preference, religion, etc. All it would take would be a study that says something about musical preference or religion or drinking showing some correlation to bad work habits or medical costs. Then, those things are valid reasons not to hire people? Let me know if this sounds over the top. I feel like I'm just playing devil's advocate, but I'm really interested in this subject.

You've been starting some interesting threads, Motokid. They seem to get a lot of response.
 
thanks ritalinkid.

Read the apartment rental analogy. Renting apartments is a business even if it's out of your own home. Why is chosing who will rent your apartment different than chosing who will make your widget, or answer your phone?

Put yourself in the business owners shoes, not the employees shoes.
Any decision you make either increases busness, or decreases it. If you make bad enough decisions, include putting restrictions on employees lifestyles, won't it all come out in the wash at some point? You'll lose valuable employees, you'll lose valuable customers, you'll lose money...
 
Motokid said:
But why can't the guy who's invested hundred's of thousands of dollars, if not millions make the rules he wants to make? If you don't like it, work somewhere else. If he makes the rules too rediculous he won't have any employees, or any customers.

If you own a beauty salon are you going to hire fat, ugly, slovenly men, or trim, sexy, neat ladies?

If you own a security service are you going to hire sub-100lb. 18 year old high school cheerleader type girls, or +200lb., muscular, strong, aggressive bouncer type guys?

If the business owner goes crazy with rules he suffers by losing employees, and business. But why can't he make that choice? He started the business, he should be able to steer it anywhere he wants. Even if that means into the ground.

Well, you know that they DO hire who they want. They DO make such rules, even if they are tacit. That's why we have Equal Opportunity laws, to counter those tacit practices.

Have you looked on a trading floor lately? Have you looked on the floor at Lloyd's of London (I interviewed there to be a reins. broker years ago and was told explicitly they preferred to hire guys, period. Less trouble for them. Period.)

Why do you think networking is still the best way to get a job? Because you are travelling in the same, refereed circles as the employer.

My sister is a retail manager in a very busy big store in Manhattan, and hires people A LOT. She loves to hire middle-aged Muslims who are fit, polite, and not very ambitious. Why? Because they are reliable, willing to do some physical work, deferrential to customers, and will stay long enough to develop a rapport. Oh yeah,--and they don't drink or smoke.

Can she explicitly state this preference or ask personal questions in an interview? No, it is illegal. Nevertheless, the actual PRACTICE reflects the preference. This is true of all forms of employment. Just look at the diversity in Local 3 or the Teamsters or the local Italian restaurant.
 
I definitely see your point. BTW, I think all the posts to this point are very valid. There are good reasons for the different lines of thought here. That's why I'm thinking the solutions to the problem of funding healthcare may come not from the users of the system, but making the system itself more efficient, regulated, etc. Look at the profit margins in the industry. Conversely, look at the cost of provider insurance. Somewhere inside the system, we have to stop the rising cost or otherwise, no one will be able to afford anything but the most basic of healthcare needs. We can keep raising costs on everyone, including bigger hikes for people that indulge in higher risk activities, and we still won't solve the problem because the prices are rising due to problems inside the system. What are your thoughts along that line?

The medical field itself is so far behind in the IT field that it's ridiculous. People are worried over medical records becoming public and are reluctant to make a system where your patient records are more easily accessible and comprehensive to emergency, hospital or family physicians.
 
Motokid said:
thanks ritalinkid.

Read the apartment rental analogy. Renting apartments is a business even if it's out of your own home. Why is chosing who will rent your apartment different than chosing who will make your widget, or answer your phone?

Put yourself in the business owners shoes, not the employees shoes.
Any decision you make either increases busness, or decreases it. If you make bad enough decisions, include putting restrictions on employees lifestyles, won't it all come out in the wash at some point? You'll lose valuable employees, you'll lose valuable customers, you'll lose money...


It's NOT different. The same types of laws apply to who you rent your apartment to as to whom you employ. What makes you think different?
 
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