The slow lingering death of fantasy writing.

[Sean Harnett]

Sean, it I who should apologize, my mannerism are often bombastic, I am glad however you decided to comment.

No need for apologies, Ainulindale. Like I said, your criticisms of my article were by and large spot-on. It was a broad argument, probably too broad, and was obviously the product of a mind with a less extensive knowledge of the contemporary fantasy scene than you possess.

Plus, if one puts something on the Internet, one can expect it to be robustly rebutted ... it wouldn't be the Internet otherwise!

Well in all honesty, the epic series get more attention because they are simply, and overwhelmingly more popular; I do like a great deal many epi cseries (Martin, Bakker, Erikson currently) but admittedly find the vast majority of them to be sub-par, some dramaticaly so. Trust me it pains me a as a fan of fantasy (a long tiem fan) and makign a lsit of my 200 favorite series/novels and seing epic fantasy so badly represented especially considering they represent the vast majority of the genre.

And here you have come to the heart of my argument! I suppose you could read TMFD as the opinion of someone who despises epic fantasy, but in fact I love epic fantasy. It's just that I've been terribly disappointed with all the epic fantasy I've read in the past ten, fifteen years (since finishing The Book of the New Sun, in fact).

My solution was to rant about it in an essay (!) -- and then to bypass modern epic fantasy altogether by going back to the twin roots of the genre (sub-genre?): first, to the pulp fantasy stories of the 1930s and 1940s, and, second, to the old epics that inspired the genre in the first place: Beowulf, the Homeric epics, the medieval Arthurian romances, the Norse sagas, etc. I also started reading strictly historical epics like the Maturin/Aubrey series I mentioned above.

Still, a part of me hopes that a modern epic fantasy will come along soon and thrill me as much as was thrilled the first time I read The Lord of the Rings.

It's a dream I have ... .

- Sean

 

[Wabbit]

I would have to pretty much agree with the article. I think the fantasy market is in really bad shape. The thing I am worried about is that the SF market seems to be heading in the same direction.

Just 5 years ago you would be hard pressed to find a SF trilogy and now every space opera is pretty much published in sets of three or more! I guess we have Hamilton's "Night Dawn Trilogy" to thank for that.

I used to read almost nothing but fantasy now I read very little fantasy. I just got so bored reading the same thing over and over again. I got tired of each story having to come in three parts or more.

There are some real jems in fantasy. Lud in the mist is one of the best novels in any genre and I urge anybody interested in the fantastic or just good literature to seek it out!

 

[Zolipara]

How many accounts do you have on this site Shade?

 

[mgarratty]

I would have to pretty much agree with the article. I think the fantasy market is in really bad shape. The thing I am worried about is that the SF market seems to be heading in the same direction.

I would agree with you - there must be large commercial pressures on writers to produce work that's easy to categorise and therefore easily marketable.

I was really excited when I came across Michael Marshall Smiths' early SF novels such as Only Forward and Spares, both excellent but his more recent novels in the serial killer\thriller (the Straw Men) genre are no where near as innovative and fresh (excellent thrillers in their own right they may be).

I saw Phillip Kerrs' books go the same way, A Philosphical Investigation is one of the best thrillers I've read but his later novels were poor and formulaic by comparison.

 

[Shade]

Hi Zolipara, and thanks for your question! I have just the one account on this site, but then between you and me, I don't like this site very much!

 

[direstraits]

This is a brilliant thread, thanks Mark! I've enjoyed reading it tremendously - plenty of authors I've never even heard of, much less read, so I'll be checking up and noting down all your recommendations. Trouble is, where I am, it's a little difficult to hunt down the more obscure names, and ordering from Amazon is mortal danger (shipping = expensive = wife ). But then that's part of the fun, isn't it?

I'm surprised that in this talk about overly bloated fantasy that nobody has even mentioned (run away, run away!) Guy Gavriel Kay. I've spoken way too much about him already, but he's good. He'll restore some faith back to you in fantasy. Trust me.

[hysterical laughter]

Sean, great to have you here with us. However, I agree with whoever who said that *not* all fantasy epics being written now are bad. And yes, I'm one who thinks Martin is the best thing since sliced bread.

Finally, Ainulindale? Did I ever tell you you're too cool with your brilliant lists?

ds

 

[pwilson]

I definitely agree that there are still wonderful authors in the genre, they are just getting harder and harder to find amidst all the crap. (forest for the trees and all that). At the fear of becoming direstraits' echo, I wanted to again agree with his glowing recommendations of Kay. He is truly a breath of fresh air in a sometimes hackneyed and stale genre. I also wanted to second the pat on the back for Ainulindale. The area around my desk has become a wastleand of scribbled-on post it notes with various authors and titles from your lists on them! Thanks!

 

[Renee]

I can't take the article seriously when the writer picks out a few authors, bashes them for not being original enough, and never really explains how these few authors set the stage for the entire genre.

I am not limited to enjoy books of a particular length. I rather enjoy long drawn out epic fantasy - unless of course I find the material dull. I enjoy following a single character or set of characters. I can also enjoy single books.

I do think some writers just pump out one sloppy book after another knowing that "loyal fans" will keep buying them and praising them no matter how horrible they are.

If the fantasy genre is in trouble, it's not because of the size of the books or the number of books in a series, but because of lazy writers that don't even attempt to write something original or interesting but instead try to adhere to a trend (whether real or imagined).

 

[Zolipara]

Robert Jordan: "As long as they keep buying them, i will keep writing them."

 

[Wabbit]

I would agree with you - there must be large commercial pressures on writers to produce work that's easy to categorise and therefore easily marketable.

I was really excited when I came across Michael Marshall Smiths' early SF novels such as Only Forward and Spares, both excellent but his more recent novels in the serial killer\thriller (the Straw Men) genre are no where near as innovative and fresh (excellent thrillers in their own right they may be).

I saw Phillip Kerrs' books go the same way, A Philosphical Investigation is one of the best thrillers I've read but his later novels were poor and formulaic by comparison.

Both Spares and Only Forward are brilliant novels. I think it's a real shame that the fantasy market is the way it is. There are some real jems out there, but I do think that the crap to cream ratio is much higher than over genres. That's a real shame.

 

[Fistandantilus]

Fantasy

I agree that some series have too many volumes, such as The Wheel Of Time series, but fantasy is my favorite genre and there are some genius writers out there such as Raymond E. Feist, Margaret Weis and Stephen Lawhead. I think that a lot of fantasy has more and more fallen into J.R.R. Tolkien imitations.(some pretty bad ones at that)

 

[rune]

I think it's a sad affair if authors are pressured into thinking long series are the way forward for fantasy. And that they have to get a couple of books out a year - were is the tallent in that

I've come across authors that despite writing a series do tend to change it as the series progresses - Kelley Armstrong being an example. You've just got into a character and then she changes the view of the series and focuses on other characters instead. Keeps it fresh and interesting

Also I still feel that shorter series are better. Why should the publishing world have a problem with an author say writing 4 books in a series - completing that series - then moving onto different characters, world etc. Surely, this is much better and it helps keep the author's work interesting.
Eventually readers will notice if a long series is flagging and will get fed up enough to stop buying the books and move to something else.

 

[Sean Harnett]

Mundane SF

I've only just been made aware of the existence of this manifesto, but it seems as if Science Fiction is having a similar discussion about its future as we are having here about fantasy ...

http://mundanesf.com/default.asp?id=2&mnu=2

 

[Ainulindale]

I've only just been made aware of the existence of this manifesto, but it seems as if Science Fiction is having a similar discussion about its future as we are having here about fantasy ...

That discussion ahs been going on heatedly for awhile now, and included some big names like Ken Macleod, Ian Macdonald, Charless Stross, I haven't read it yet but I saw Gabe Chouinard post at anotehr baord he has repleid to it.

More stuff http://mundane-sf.blogspot.com/2005/05/i-havent-answered-every-question.html

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ianmcdonald/2378.html?thread=11338#t11338

Acutally here is Gabe's response which links many of the notables http://dislofics.blogspot.com/

 

[mgarratty]

This is a brilliant thread, thanks Mark! I've enjoyed reading it tremendously - plenty of authors I've never even heard of, much less read, so I'll be checking up and noting down all your recommendations.

.... Guy Gavriel Kay. I've spoken way too much about him already, but he's good. He'll restore some faith back to you in fantasy. Trust me.

ds

Hi ds - thanks for the comments about the thread - I've also picked up lots of new authors to try (from Ainulindales' site in particular).

I've not come across Guy Gavriel Kay before but will give him a try - thanks for the recommendation.

I know that there is a lot of very good fantasy being written - but how do find out about them? - the bookstores I visit just stock the stock, bestseller authors - thank god for Amazon's wishlist recommendations - there are many excellent authors I've tried and really enjoyed recently that I would never have come across if Amazon hadn't suggested 'If you like this then you might also enjoy ..." and also this forum obviously.

There's been so much epic fantasy written recently, you begin to wonder wether the genre is worked out - have all the plots and ideas been done?

Maybe some new exciting author will come along with a startling new direction and style and take fantasy off in new directions that others will follow - that would be exciting!

Having said that given that LOTR is about 50 years old now I think the epic fantasy genre has done well to last this long - people obviously still enjoy these books.

M

 

[mgarratty]

Both Spares and Only Forward are brilliant novels. I think it's a real shame that the fantasy market is the way it is. There are some real jems out there, but I do think that the crap to cream ratio is much higher than over genres. That's a real shame.

In other genres e.g. thriller/crime thriller you don't get the series you get in fantasy (recurring detectives maybe) but each book is a seperate story - so I think that in this genre you're only as good as your last book, each book has to stand alone.

In a fantasy series after the first book you've invested some time (maybe considerable) and money and even if the book is not that great may complete the others just to find out how things pan out. And I think publishers leverage this - e.g...

I've just read Spider World (The Tower) by Colin Wilson, (actually a great book has anybody else read this?). It's a series of 4 I think and the first ends with the most abrupt ending I've ever come across, no resolution, the climax of the story is in mid flow, just as if the whole book was chopped in half for convenience sake (or being cynical, cheap at twice the price - what should have been one for the price of two).

Mark

 

[jdmartin]

Do you think it's possible that, at least for some, this type of "bloating" is inevitable? All authors have writer's block at some point, they can't think up new ideas for books so they write what they know and continue series on for much longer than they should. Maybe the epic part of Epic Fantasies has its own drawbacks? Perhaps that's a death sentence for some authors even though they don't know it yet.

Some authors make their entire career off of one series of books. Anyone who's read the Wheel of Time knows that good authors can write pure drivel when they've been at it too long. Feist did it, Jordan did it, Goodkind did it.... All of their books are based solely on one series. Others like Brooks or Eddings or Anthony have multiple, unrelated series and they seem to be able to know when it's time to stop writing one series and move on to another. (Although Anthony's Xanth saga is getting a little bloated).

So, my question is, that do you think that, because of a few authors who had one good idea and became famous for it, and are unwilling or unable (perhaps due to pressure from publishers) to delve into other possible storylines which causes their stories to inevetiably become stale, which also causes these "leaders" of the genre to demonstrate an overall view of the entire genre becoming repetitive and boring? Or do you think that this stagnation is happening over a broad spectrum and that this is the way the Epic Fantasy genre is headed?