The Sword of Truth - Terry Goodkind

[jaycee]

I've read up to the end of book 5 of Terry Goodkinds series. I like it so far, though I wasn't too fond of Soul of the Fire. I have the next 3 books to read. I will get to them by the end of the month I hope.

 

[direstraits]

Mord-sith...who'd a thunk it?

Robert Jordan, actually. Well, some details are different of course, but everything from the bonding of one individual to another, with either or both magically gifted, are brought over from The Wheel Of Time's sul'dam and damane - connected through a collar device called adam. The collared one, sul'dam, can be punished at will by damane - surges of electical-like pain. Similar to Goodkind's version.

One of the many bits that I considered blatant plagiarism by Goodkind.

ds

 

[Zolipara]

One of the many bits that I considered blatant plagiarism by Goodkind.

He is not exactly the only author in the fantasy genre thats guilty of plagiarism. Most do it to some extent.

The worst case i have seen is probably Terry Brooks "The sword of shannara".

What philosophy?

You dont want to know.

 

[direstraits]

I've not read Brooks, but from what I've read here, he's guilty of it too.

I agree with you Zolipara. It's not the issue of plagiarism in itself that I have a problem with. The modern storyteller can hardly tell a story without walking on path previously trodden, whether the person has the intention to copy or not. Everyone gets influenced in a degree or another.

But Goodkind's characters are not simply influences. They seem closer to have been lifted off directly from the pages of Jordan. If he didn't rip of Jordan, then it must be the most incredible coincidence in literature. I'd probably go so far as to say those who read Jordan will immediately see the similarities by the second book - and say 'WHAAAT? Didn't this appear in...?'

ds

 

[Zolipara]

Yep Goodkind steals elements from Jordan. But i would say Jordan has stealed his fair share of elements as well. Its rare that i read a traditional fantasy book and not see elements that i remember from other books. The traditional fantasy book where only a innocent countryboy can save the world from certain doom at the hands of the evil one has been written many many times.

Especially the first book of Wheel Of time has a lot of characters/situations i recognise from other books. I like fantasy but in my opinion the genre suffers from a lack of originality.

 

[direstraits]

I like fantasy but in my opinion the genre suffers from a lack of originality.

Agreed. If you haven't already, give Guy Gavriel Kay a try. You can't accuse him of not breathing new life to fantasy. He's bloody good too.

I've been recommending him a lot of times now. Maybe I should write him and ask him to give me some commission or something.

ds

 

[Kookamoor]

What philosophy?

The Wizard Rules are actually based on a real philosophy developed by someone or other on the 'proper' way to live one's life.

I really enjoyed Terry Goodkind's books, and I started reading them back in 1996 or so. I think I finally noticed the glaring picture of him when I was in the third book, and it really disturbed me. Reading his self-commendation and his arrogant 'this is the RIGHT way to live your life' stuff is fairly hilarious, but it doesn't take away from the fact that I enjoyed the books. I'm still reading them as they come out, although I'm getting a *little* weiry of Richard and Kahlan separating from each other (I think I've posted on this before).

But I still think he's had some neat ideas - of course fantasy authors borrow from each other! This is a genre that people like, and authors enjoy writing, so they keep going. What's wrong with that? As long as there's people enjoying these books, there's nothing the matter.

And as for the books being similar to Robert Jordan, well that may be true for some elements, but I prefer Goodkind's writing style and his characters. I could barely make it through the second book of Wheel of Time before I got so frustrated with... Rand, was it? The fella that kept blowing everything up and chucking a hissy fit? Oh, he deserved a good slap, IMHO.

 

[Ainulindale]

The genre defintely is recycled and that why it has the stigma atatched to itself, as many of it's best sellers happen to be the ones msot guilty of being derivative. I would not say the entire genre suffers from originality however. There are numerous authors (some of which who are IMHO the very best in the genre) who offer original, entertaining, thought provoking reads, however most people look over them because they don't have an Elf on the cover of there books As I think of the best 20 fantasy efforts I have ever read only one has example has an Elf or Dwarf in it.

It's true Goodkind steal elements from other authors, however it is done a lot in epic/high fantasy so it's not what I hold against, I simply think he's a sophmoric writer, regardless of where his elements come from.

I quote Michael Moorcock, who touches on the subject nicely:

"Terry Pratchett once remarked that all his readers were called Kevin. He is lucky in that he appears to be the only Terry in fantasy land who is able to write a decent complex sentence. That such writers also depend upon recycling the plots of their literary superiors and are rewarded for this bland repetition isn't surprising in a world of sensation movies and manufactured pop bands. That they are rewarded with the lavish lifestyles of the most successful whores is also unsurprising. To pretend that this addictive cabbage is anything more than the worst sort of pulp historical romance or western is, however, a depressing sign of our intellectual decline and our free-falling academic standards."

No wonder Moorcock is a legend,

 

[Hyperstorm]

new author!

Yep Goodkind steals elements from Jordan. But i would say Jordan has stealed his fair share of elements as well. Its rare that i read a traditional fantasy book and not see elements that i remember from other books. The traditional fantasy book where only a innocent countryboy can save the world from certain doom at the hands of the evil one has been written many many times.

Especially the first book of Wheel Of time has a lot of characters/situations i recognise from other books. I like fantasy but in my opinion the genre suffers from a lack of originality.

Hey zolipara

give James Clemens a try & hopefully you wont be dissapointed
btw totally agree with you on TB'S "Sword of Shannara" looked like a minitaurized version of "The lord of the rings"

 

[Zolipara]

I didnt mean that all fantasy is unoriginal. I just think that its hard to find the good ones. At the moment i'm avoiding longer series (with a few exceptions) because they tend to be the worst. The biggest problem with series like Sword of Truth and Wheel of Time is that the characters are not good enough to carry such a number of books, and that the plotconcepts gets repeated too many times.

As for Goodkinds philosophy its based on the writings of Ayn Rand. Goodkind sees "The sword of truth" as the "Animal Farm" of fantasy. His world is based on our own he says.

Looking at the website Ainulindale linked to i found this quote:

The major conflict in "Naked Empire," for instance, is "between reason and the major philosophy held by the intellectuals of the U.S. and the world over," says the Southern Nevada-based writer, who begins a tour for his latest book Monday at the Barnes & Noble in Henderson.

"That philosophy was made whole by Immanuel Kant," Goodkind explains. "He said that our senses are inadequate to determine reality, our senses deceive us and we therefore can't know what reality is. And because we can't know what reality is, we can't know good from evil. We can't say one thing is better than another. This leads to what we have today, this concept of moral equivalence. This philosophy has infected the world. When you have that concept, you're at war with reality."

I've never heard of James Clemens but i'll take a look. Thanks for the tip.

 

[direstraits]

But I still think he's had some neat ideas - of course fantasy authors borrow from each other! This is a genre that people like, and authors enjoy writing, so they keep going. What's wrong with that? As long as there's people enjoying these books, there's nothing the matter.

Agreed, and I said as much in my earlier post about borrowing among authors. When it comes down to it, nothing is wrong with copying at all, even if people don't enjoy it.

Someone once remarked that the difference between Jordan and Goodkind is Goodkind actually moves his stories forward. I totally agree with that one.

ds

 

[Kookamoor]

Someone once remarked that the difference between Jordan and Goodkind is Goodkind actually moves his stories forward. I totally agree with that one.

Heh - so true!!

 

[Self]

The difference between Jordan & Goodkind in my opinion is that Jordan keeps the pages turning for me while Goodkind resulted in me having that little line of dribble running from my mouth as I nodded off to sleep....
Horses for courses

 

[MysticSentrosi]

I am asking for a spoiler

I have to know... Richard isnt going to use his magic through his "Anger and Need" again his he? That is getting slightly trying.

Thanks.

 

[Kookamoor]

I have to know... Richard isnt going to use his magic through his "Anger and Need" again his he? That is getting slightly trying.

I'm not quite sure where you are in the books, so I can't offer you a spoiler, but the 'anger and need' thing is his weakness. Ever noticed how in every fantasy book there's usually a weakness in the wizard? Otherwise they'd be all powerful - for example many are old, and consequently they are frail. Well, in Richard's case he can't necessarily cast magic at every time.

However, despite the fact that it fits with the fantasy cliche, I don't really mind this. He's never sat still long enough for Zedd to actually teach him anything or to go to the Wizards Keep and find something to help him learn. Do you expect him to just suddenly learn how to use the magic? I think that would be a little implausible. Plus, given he's got the subtractive as well, it's hardly surprising that it's more difficult to master.

Just my $0.02!

 

[MysticSentrosi]

He's never sat still long enough for Zedd to actually teach him anything or to go to the Wizards Keep and find something to help him learn. Do you expect him to just suddenly learn how to use the magic? I think that would be a little implausible. Plus, given he's got the subtractive as well, it's hardly surprising that it's more difficult to master.

Just my $0.02!

Yea, but with the subtractive... He has Nicci... Oh, Im on Naked Empire. Why hasnt he ever tried to learn from Zedd.... I seem to recaLL A few time they could have had a nice sit down about atleast his subtractive side... Like in SoT with Nathan.

 

[Kookamoor]

Spoiler

Yeah, but Nicci has gained the subtractive through nefarious means - she doesn't have inherent talent. Consequently it works differently. I think this was mentioned somewhere or other - perhaps in Naked Empire.

And I think it takes a while longer than a couple of days to learn all there is to know. Zedd managed to remove the 'headache' thing in a few moments, but as Richard learns more they'll return. I think learning how to use his talents is something that's supposed to take years - look at how long the wizards of old were supposed to be in training for, and the reason that the city in the Old World - Tanimura? (sorry - it's been a while and I don't have the book in front of me) - was enchanted to allow lifetimes to be longer

.

I'm justifying this because it made sense to me and I really liked these books. I don't think it's an inconsistency that Richard can't use his talents - in fact, if he could use them proficiently it would make the book a little dull.

 

[Kookamoor]

BTW, ds - I picked up Guy Gavriel Kay's The Summer Tree from the library today. You gave me the suggestion a while back - I'll let you know how I get on!

 

[MysticSentrosi]

Nooooooo

i just finished Naked Empire...

It isnt fair.

im hoping to go to my step moms this week... or somethin... and mebe get it then

 

[muggle]

Ok, if I start reading Terry Goodkind do I need to start with his first book or can I junp in with his latest.