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Vladimir Nabokov: Lolita

pontalba said:
You know Peder, the order is really important. Because that way the reader can form their own opinions and when said reader changes that opinion, it is well informed with all reasoning as to why. ;) So, first read Nabokov, then read about Nabokov and his works. :cool:

You know I love to reread books. But I've never had a book evolve the way Lolita does. In others I might miss some details the first or even second time around. But not levels of meaning like Lolita, or really any of Nabokov's work. Quite Nice. :D
Pontalba,
It is definitely what Nabokov hoped, planned and then executed -- rewards for the general reader the first time, followed by additional reward for the rereader. And even such a mild-mannered work as Pnin has a few gently hidden puzzles to work out (which I am still working on :( ) Plus it is not very consoling to read in the Lolita Introduction, as I just did, that there is a way to lose that game also. Grrrrrrrrrr, but nice grrrrrrrrrrr :)
Thought I'd add that just to be helpful :rolleyes: :D
Peder
 
LOL on Pnin remark. When I started the chapter that began Victor's section (Pnin's ex-wife's son?), it really threw me for a loop. But I just plowed ahead, and enjoyed.
Love the football sequence! :) So sweet on Pnin's part.
 
pontalba said:
LOL on Pnin remark. When I started the chapter that began Victor's section (Pnin's ex-wife's son?), it really threw me for a loop. But I just plowed ahead, and enjoyed.
Love the football sequence! :) So sweet on Pnin's part.
Pontalba,
And he worked so hard in that football sequence to get things just right for his son! A worry wart with heart1 :)
Peder
 
The time frame threw me. Is that Pnin's son, or just his ex-wife's son with the new husband? I thought Pnin and she had been seperated for 20 years, so the boy is not old enough to be Pnin's child. :confused:
 
pontalba said:
The time frame threw me. Is that Pnin's son, or just his ex-wife's son with the new husband? I thought Pnin and she had been seperated for 20 years, so the boy is not old enough to be Pnin's child. :confused:
Pontalba,
Sorry to say, I am not up to that yet in my reread.
But quick page turning and glance at pp86 and p90 seem to suggest the son of her second marriage/relationship (to Dr. Eric Wind), and glancing back to pp46-47 shows a two year period where that must have happened, and p49 an ownership statement by Wind, all seem to tie together at making Wind the father, and Pnin the adoptive father(?). But, with Nabokov, I refuse to commit myself to anything, except that I am not the father! And even that I might not be sure of, seems to be the safest posture. :D
I am going to have to get things considerably fresher in my mind than I have them. :eek: :(
Peder
 
Peder said:
Pontalba,
.......an ownership statement by Wind, all seem to tie together at making Wind the father, and Pnin the adoptive father(?). But, with Nabokov, I refuse to commit myself to anything, except that I am not the father! And even that I might not be sure of, seems to be the safest posture. :D
I am going to have to get things considerably fresher in my mind than I have them. :eek: :(
Peder

ROTFALOL too true! The whole "king being the other father" thing with Victor might just be his imagining Pnin to be the father.....:rolleyes: Or a clue! ;)
 
"When the lights come on again ..."

That's an oldie for anyone who can sing and remembers it -- don't all sing at once! -- but definitely from Nabokov's era, WWII in the US. :)

And when the sun does come up again here, there are a few passages from Lolita that now come back to mind in clearer focus that I'll be putting up. They bear on the Lolita analog of that famous question, "What did Lo know and when did she know it?"
'Til then,
Typing in the dark, :)
Peder
 
Which Lolita? Oh THAT Lolita!

Michael Wood has an essay entitled "Revisitng Lolita" in Ellen Pifer's "Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita, a Casebook" which he opens with the following paragraph,
People reading Nabokov's Lolita for the first time are often baffled by their own reactions. Those who haven't read it for a while approach it again nervously, as if they will learn about their old attitudes or their old selves. It's not just that the book, the story of the loves, travels and undoing of Humbert Humbert and Dolores Haze, a middle-aged European man and a twelve-year-old American girl, is funnier than it ought to be or more cruel than we want it to be. Or that Humbert's tacky charm stretches much further than it has any right to. It's that we really don't know where we are, why we are laughing, or what to do with our discomfort. There's also the sense that Lolita, the girl rather than the book, has become part of our language, the name of a condition. But do we know what that condition is?
Do we indeed? Not here, which is why I'll be reading the essay with great interest. But the thought behind Wood's last few sentences sparks the more direct question in my own mind:

Do we even know who Lolita is?
And the more I think about her, the more I wonder, as each new fact and insight that surfaces provides a new and different way of looking at her, at least for me. In any event, I offer Wood's paragraph so that everyone can wonder anew about the issues he raises. It might even make an appropriate opening paragraph for a Lolita forum discussion, in addition to opening his essay. But in Nabokov's true way, here it appears not at the beginning, but far into our own discussion, where I daresay we have learned a lot, but still wonder in the same way that Wood does.

Just what is it about that girl?
Peder
 
The prompting for my previous question came from a pair of comments by Humbert which have now slowly drifted to the surface and which, now that I want them, I can't find for love nor money. (Although I bet I know someone in this forum who can! :rolleyes: )

Early on, Humbert said something that was very obscure to me about acquainting Lolita with his (darker) world.

And left by itself, that had no further explanation. Until just recently, here in the thread, when someone mentioned what must be the closing parenthesis to that thought, so to speak. Later on, Humbert said something to the effect that Lolita had peered past the edge into his world and not liked what she had seen.

Those are two comments that would seem to speak directly to Lolita's frame of mind, and to our wondering "just what did she think she was doing?" In the spirit of Nomi Tamir-Ghez in the Casebook, who says Nabokov allows information to "leak out," those two statmenets by Humbert may be as close as we'll ever get to an indication of what was going on between them, or at least what he thought was going on between them. (or says he thought was going on between them, etc etc).

In many (all?) other instances the answer to Nabokov's puzzles can be found by searching hard enough for the clues. And I have just seen someone who said that was indeed the case, that Nabokov always adhered strictly to the rules of always providing enough information to unravel and understand his stories.

On the question of when Humbert is lying and when he is telling the truth, however, it seems to me that there is no explicit confirmatory or contradictory information given by Nabokov to permit the reader to settle the question. Which is why I am suddenly more interested in those two quotes I have alluded to, for the light they may shed on a large section of the story. But which is why I am also beginning to conclude that we will never know exactly just how to take large sections of Humbert's confession. Half of the answer is there on the printed page, and the other half of the answer will be what we bring to the story to complete it, and to answer the question in our own minds. (As was previously mentioned here also).

So the detective work goes on,
Peder
 
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

Ok, I found the first one at any rate. p.166
She had enterd my world, umber and black Humberland, with rash curiosity; she surveyed it with a shrug of amused distaste; and it seemed to me now that she was ready to turn away from it with something akin to plain repulsion.

wait a sec, I just had a thought.....
Is this what you mean Peder?
p. 272
In her washed-out gray eyes, strangely spectacled, our poor romance was for a moment reflected, pondered upon, and dismissed like a dull party, like a rainy picnic to which only the dullest bores had come, like a humdrum exercise, like a bit of dry mud caking her childhood. ....................She asked me not to be dense. The past was the past.
 
pontalba said:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p
Ok, I found the first one at any rate. p.166
Pontalba,
Yes, absolutely! That one on p166 is the second one of the pair I had in mind. Hidden in plain sight as usual as the opening to a chapter! And suggesting, as I thought, a certain complicity by Lo but, let's say, no serious interest.
Perhaps the first one is on p133-4
She saw the stark act merely as part of a youngster's furtive world, unknown to adults. What adults did for purposes of procreation was no business of hers ...While eager to impress me with the world of tough kids, she was not quite prepared for certain discrepancies between a kid's life and mine.
So, using your quote from p166, the pair completes as
She had entered my world, umber and black Humbertland with rash curiosity; she surveyed it with a shrug of amused distaste; and it seemed now that she was ready to turn away from it with something akin to plain revulsion.

In between those two quotes there occur the Enchanted Hunters episode, the beginning of the first tour, his description of the three horrible punishments that could befall her, some plainitive pleadings by her for normal contacts with other people, and his grabbing her by the neck for a quick 'connection' before dinner. And that was after only the beginning of the first tour; there were 80 pages yet to go to complete the first tour, and start the second, until she finally got sick, entered the hospital on p.240, and then escaped.

So it sounds to me like she was initially involved only for casual adolescent explorations (viewed as friendly 'play' and misplaced toward a man she regarded as a friend), got quickly bored with the whole thing, and then 'wanted out' in a serious way. But after that second quote she was really his prisoner against her will.

Actually I think there is a similar quote earlier than p133-34, but for present purposes these two are sufficient because they bracket the basic events. She was a kid with no clear sense of boundaries on proper behavior (I would say) and unwittingly got into a situation beyond her control, while he always knew he had the very serious intention of exploiting her, his own very personal nymphet, to the fullest extent possible for his own personal enjoyment.

Make sense?
Peder
 
Peder Makes perfect sense.
OK, at the time of the first quote, her participation was willing. It was still statutory rape, but she was willing at that point. But by the second quote, that willingness had changed to the "dark" episodes. She was trapped, and Humbert controlled her every move, and it was truer to the defination of Rape. He did use physical force on occasion, but his was usually a more mental and emotional coercion.

The quote from p.272 wasn't applicable in that instance, I see now what you were driving at now. But it seems to me that that particular quote defined her dismissive attitude of the entire episode of Humbert at that particular time. It points to the path her life would/might have taken had she not died. :(

So really, in the end, she won, and Humbert lost all.
 
The best thing about Nabokov's characters is the multi-dimentional, layered aspect of them. Not just the story, the characters themselves. Look at the delving that is necessary to get to any core personality of them. Amazing. So many authors have a single aspect character. Its either good or bad. Not much in the way of shadings. Thats what spoils one for other authors. Not that other authors cannot be enjoyed, they can. But VN is so much more.

Last night I read the episode of Pnin remembering his past love. Heart wrenching.
 
Lovely discussion... I haven't got the energy at the moment to pay attention enough to contribute, sadly. :)

But I found an A-Z of Nabokov, and just wanted to share. I've learnt quite a bit from looking at it for the last hour or so, such as that Lolita's favourite record was 'Little Carmen' that HH calls 'Dwarf Conductors' which I don't recall at all.
 
steffee said:
Lovely discussion... I haven't got the energy at the moment to pay attention enough to contribute, sadly. :)

But I found an A-Z of Nabokov, and just wanted to share. I've learnt quite a bit from looking at it for the last hour or so, such as that Lolita's favourite record was 'Little Carmen' that HH calls 'Dwarf Conductors' which I don't recall at all.
Steffee!! Marvelous!! Brilliant!! If thats "all" you have to contribute today, you are off the hook for the day!! :D ;) That will tie up many loose ends IMHO.
Brava!

Thanks for posting it!
 
steffee said:
Lovely discussion... I haven't got the energy at the moment to pay attention enough to contribute, sadly. :)

But I found an A-Z of Nabokov, and just wanted to share. I've learnt quite a bit from looking at it for the last hour or so, such as that Lolita's favourite record was 'Little Carmen' that HH calls 'Dwarf Conductors' which I don't recall at all.
Steffee,
Sure hope you are not under the weather with the flu or something, :eek: just healthy schoolwork :rolleyes:
Many thanks for that A-Z. All I can say is "OMG, do they have a job ahead of them!!" But it is a noble hope! And it is now in My Favorites!
Good to hear from you :)
peder
 
Post 1981, the year I was born :D

After trawling through these 1980 posts on several occasions, to locate a link, it has become somewhat of a chore... so, this post on p.100 and whatever, is a list of links contained throughout the thread! :D

Books
Two Lolitas
Lo's Diary
Annotated Lolita
Enchanter
Nabokov Selected Letters
Lolita: The Book of the Film

Other threads
Lolita thread
Nabokov Tutorials
The Enchanter
Playboy

Articles
Hurricane Lolita
The Seduction
NY Times
Psychoanalytical Studies Organisation
Nomadic Subjectivity in Lolita
Martin Amis on Lolita
Sexual Deviance and Normality in Lolita
Sally Horner – a real life source of Lolita
Salon Article
Salon (Nabokov's Brother)
Nabokov's Interview
Lobachevsky poem
Stacy Schiff – Pulitzer Prize
Laughter in the Dark
Interview with Stacy Schiff
Sado-Masochistic Desire in Lolita, Texas
Metamorphoses (PDF)
Lolita and Pedophiles
Lo's Diary (Reviews)
From Lolita to Lo's Diary
Reviews of Lolita on Ciao
Ackroyd / Nabokov
Nabokov A-Z

Dictionary Definitions
Solipsism
Self-absorbtion

Wikipedia links
Lolita
Doppelganger
Devil's Familiar
Arthur Poe
Plagiarism

Other Links
Katzenjammer Kids
Reds (Warren Beatty documentary)
Shelley Winters
Madeleines
Galataa
A Natural Woman
I am Woman! Hear Me Roar
Ava Gardner
Elizabeth Taylor
Free PDF reader (Foxit)
Reckless
Pooh Personality Test
:D :D

Disclaimer bit: (which would be the small print if I hadn't spent long enough on this post already, and wanted to make the text small ;) )most of the links were provided by members of the Nabokovomaniac Group, other than myself, if any link causes offence, search through the 100-and-whatever pages and PM the culprit :D

Also, a quote of the ever-so-important biography of Lolita
Peder said:
1910 and onward - VN and his family visited and lived in Berlin at various times
1916 - A 'German Lolita' short story published
1939 - Manuscript for VN's novella The Enchanter written
1950 - Sally Horner story hits the newspapers.
1955 - VN's novel Lolita published.

And Peder, btw, how on earth did you manage to do that boxy-thing on page 3?? :confused:
 
Steffee!!!!!!!
I stand in complete and utter amazement at your Herculean Feat!

All I can say honey, is bloody marvelous, brilliant even!! :eek: :D

:D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool: :D
 
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